A civil rights parade.

we need peacful revolution now. nation wide strike in the case of martial law. the NWO wants us to be violent so we can be demonized, they want a war, they want the excuse to escelate.

I Agree

general strikes are one of our most powerful weapons, if only we could manifest that level of self-realized empowerment. a peaceful revolution would, of course, be ideal, and it’s not that those of us who embrace armed struggle do so because we want to, but rather, we do so because we have concluded that all other options have been exhausted. we recognize that the system will not give us our freedom without a fight.

that said, and self-defense aside, many of us have long argued that the destruction of inherently violent private property is an act of non-violence whereas failure to do so constitutes a passive inaction of violence.

as i’ve said elsewhere, although i will not denounce or dismiss the means and forms of revolt chosen by others, it is my opinion that the destruction of working-class property is unfortunate, particularly in the light of the plentiful ruling-class, capitalist targets of attack.

but no, your analysis that “the NWO wants us to be violent so we can be deomonized” does not have adequate depth. sure the ruling-class elite would like us to turn our rage against one another, rather than towards our true and common enemy, but it is mistaken to believe that they want us to destroy the infrastructure upon which the illusion of their power and authority depends. that is the last thing they want, and they’ve used every trick in the book, from racism to nationalism, to keep the people divided amongst themselves and looking in the wrong direction.

we struggle against not flesh and bone but Ideas.

We live in the times that try men’s souls. We live at the end of one age and the beginning of another. Our world is ending, and as the future comes slowly into focus the old world burns.

One way or another, it is inevitable that for humanity to move to the next stage in its evolution the current world socio-economic structure must end. The naked truth stands before anyone willing to reach out and grasp it, the systems in which society functions will become obsolete in our lifetimes. All these systems are based on the control and management of resources. One theorist, Harold Lasswell, illuminates this fact by defining politics as “who gets what, when, and how, this is the most accurate definition of politics. This mental construct serves as the function to dealing with the economic problem of scarcity. All power and control in this system is derived from the management of the needs and desires that are its foundation. Moving from this system then to a new one is going to be a tremendous task for society to undertake. This is further complicated by the fact that all socially constructed systems in human culture are organic in nature. These systems have an interest to survive in the sphere that has created them. To expect the system to willingly “die” then, or to expect its controllers to relinquish their control of the reigns of power in favor of the people of the world is impossible. These power structure organisms will and are going to defend their existence. To believe otherwise now is not only naive, but dangerous.

Where dose this leave us? What do we do?

A word from history –

Let me give you a word of the philosophy of reforms.

The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions, yet made to her august claims, have been born of earnest struggle. The conflict has been exciting, agitating, all-absorbing, and for the time being putting all other tumults to silence. It must do this or it does nothing.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what a people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.

Men may not get all they pay for in this world; but they must pay for all they get. If we ever get free from all the oppressions and wrongs heaped upon us, we must pay for their removal. We must do this by labor, by suffering, by sacrifice, and, if needs be, by our lives, and the lives of others. – Frederick Douglass

Individually we all must come to a personal conclusion of how to deal with this situation. How will we confront this struggle? A current line of thought seems to suggest the time for talk has ended, and the time for resistance has come. Violently if necessary.

These are the themes of statements suchs as: _Any means necessary._OR Americans are sworn to defend against the very tyranny we now encounter in the halls of Washington and we must act to stop it in every way we see fit.

This type of rehtoric has always been very powerfull. It calls to the minds eye images of Malcom X or Thomas Payne denouncing evil from the grand hights of moral righteousness. This type of speech pours fire into the hearts of the passionate patriot. It calls out to our sense of injustice and frustration at the world as it is today. In our present circumstance this type of thinking is an extremly dangerous ideolgy.

For many of those seeking to effect change this represents the most vital choice the questing intellect that seeks to effect change can come to. To be a militant revolutionary or a progressive evolutionary ,and when to engage those roles.

What is effective Change?

Is victory tearing down Bush and his cronies? Is victory a civil war fought in the streets of the USA by loyal patriots seeking to liberate their country, reclaiming the American government by and For the People? Is victory the end to all government? What does it mean to win the battle for the future of humanity?

Many will answer differently. All according to their own experience.

I will give my answer.

To win humanities freedom and steer its course back to a healthy evolution within the current paradigm is impossible. The only hope for the future is to break the illusion which grips the soul of humanity.

This is not a simply a statement of confronting the world paradigm as it is. What I refer to is understanding any attempt to do away with this system by traditional revolutionary means currently will only further empower these systems as they exist today. Direct confrontation currently will lead to nowhere. We can not attack this system from within its confines, we must attack the very reality that creates it. To do so will require a revolution of humanties understanding of this reality.

Why violent revolution will not work Now

Any kind of physical attack only serves to accelerate the capability of the power structure/organism to defend itself. By attempting to confront that control you feed its energy in an endless cycle as that currently all forms of resistance must occur within that matrix.

Under the current world system industry, military, intelligence agencies, financial institutions, and governments are fully controlled by a class of people who are the embodiment of that world order. This group functions as the gatekeepers and defenders of the Status Quo of the current world order of control through scarcity, controlling every lever of society, advancing its evolution along an agenda that will perpetuate that state of affairs. Any kind of physical resistance is exactly the type of action that elite power structure wants to see happen now. This group sees the writing on the wall. It understands that without outside influence the current world order will become obsolete, thus this organism is now moving to sabotage any movement into a future without it. It does this by consistently creating situations that offer zero chance for a framework for a future without it to develop, thus a reality is created in which any chance for change is impossible. Any physical attack on this group organism will only accelerate the organisms’ ability to lock down society and eliminate the capability of the ideas that are the real threat to it to flourish. This is the reason for the creation of the New Order, to quash the potentiality of any new paradigm from forming. It is for this reason that if these types of attacks do not occur naturally they will in fact be initiated to accomplish the same goal per the Hegelian dialectic – problem, reaction, solution. The examples of this are legion as this is exactly what is being done in Iraq now via P20g, the strategy of tension. Hitler burned his own parliamentary building to usher in his police sate, our elite have already begun the same process with 9-11. It is only through events such as these (whether real or manufactured) that the system can enjoin the people to defend it and the Status Quo. To instigate revolution at the wrong moment then only adds flame to that fire. For violent revolution to work their must be the chance for victory, and so long as this deceptive organism still blinds the majority of the world population’s understanding of reality, no hope for change by that means can exist. So long as the people believe in the system any attack on that system will be construed as an attack on the people. Hence, this matrix in its current physical from is invulnerable to physical attack. No rebellion, no resistance, can ever have meaning so long as it takes place within the bounds of that reality. This is the deadly power of the “matrix”; it turns off humanities ability to resist it so long as they function within its boundaries. Only by attacking the social construct that creates this matrix can we win.

Whether or not the individual is willing to except the idea of a proactively intelligent organism/class is irrelevant. Any understanding of the organic nature of power structures reveals that they will always seek to defend themselves. Whether or not active conspiracy is engaged in to achieve the state of the Status Quo does not matter. The systems are the problem, they set the stage for the continual conflicts we are experiencing, and will always do so. By its very nature, the world systems of control are seeking to evolve along with mans technological capabilities. This final sum of that evolution is an enslaved humanity. This slavery is a product of the simple fact that in the future man will either be free or a slave, there is no longer any middle ground for him to rest on. Humanity has arrived at this present state today by no accident. The people of the world and the reality overlords that are the managing class of this system of control have always been on a collision course. What we are experiencing now is the only logical culmination in that conflict. Technology has shifted the equation. Humanity has now become so powerful the forces that war within its collective soul no longer have any room to maneuver around one another in the ebb and tide of history. What I am talking about are the primal forces in the mass consciousness of humanity represented on one end by fear/control versus love/freedom. Both forces stand toe to toe at the brink of annihilation, each becoming increasingly mutually exclusive to one another. In the past equilibrium existed constricting the conflict of these two social forces within the larger paradigm by the races technological ignorance. The Status Quo was maintainable. In the last century this protection has slowly eroded with the continuing evolution of its technological capabilities with the end result being that the future can only belong to one group, one type of reality; Either the controlled or the controllers, either freedom or slavery.

There will only come one fulcrum point at which successful revolution can occur. This point will be expressed at the moment western civilization attempts to transform itself from the old matrix to the New World Order. This moment, and only this moment will afford the people of the world their chance for change. This time of metamorphosis, where all the energy of the old system will be in flux into the new one will offer the only soft point for humanity to take control of its own destiny and remove from the elite power structure their dominance over the worlds control mechanisms. This and only this will afford the people of the world an opportunity to enter an age without these systems. It will be at this very moment as well that the illusion of this system serving humanities best interest will also end. After this any doubt that these systems only serve to perpetuate themselves will vanish, any and all who are capable of seeing the truth of this and having an impact on the outcome of this situation will come to a useful understanding either before or at that moment. It is for this reason that this moment will be so crucial. This moment will align not only humanities revelation about the world system but will afford humanity the one chance it will ever have to defeat that system. In that critical moment the future of our race will be decided. It for that reason that the information war, the war for the minds of men is so critical.

If we fail, if humanity fails then the resulting technocratically instilled slave state will become undefeatable. The future will be a boot stamping on the helpless face of the people forever.

The time between now and then is extremely valuable. Every day is another opportunity to plant the seeds of dissent among the people, to awaken them to the true nature of the struggle humanity faces, every day one more person realizes what the truth nature of this struggle is. This is the irresistible gravitational pull of truth; it can be ignored and suppressed for only so long.

How we can win

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. – Eric Blair

This is a struggle between our attempt to shift this reality and the agents of the Status Quo to keep it in place. This is a struggle between our truth and their lies.

The real battle we face today is a battle of the mind. It is the battle to awaken humanity to the danger it is in. It is a struggle to shift the paradigm as we know it. This requires a revolution in humanities consciousness. It is for this reason that the elite will continue to engage in every possible tactic to keep the current prophets from spreading the truth that will cause this awakening. As a species we can no longer afford to allow ourselves to be hypnotized into slumber in this way. Like the workhorse, we have allowed the blinders to be put on us. We have been willing agents in our enslavement; we have empowered the system as much as the controllers of it have. It has only been through the will of the people and our acquiescence that this system has existed at all. For the Elite agenda to succeed we must continue to do so.

This translates into the end conflict of either what is best in men rising to defeat what is the worst, or humanity being eaten from within by its own spiritual cancers.

For our struggle to prosper we must inoculate the world with the truth.

Sooner or later, there will be armed struggle. The elite power grid will never willingly surrender its dominion. Instead it will fight to the bitter end, and if possible, in the final equation it will attempt to destroy all of humanity rather than be destroyed. The only chance of winning that final struggle is based upon the possibility that the vast majority of the people of the world will not go along with that suicide pact. Instead of turning their guns on us, enough soldiers will instead turn their weapons on the commanders ordering them to fire. When the orders come to fire the missiles that will kill the innocent, the commanders will see that they are doing the work of evil men. The generals, politicians, and industry leaders that have gone along with this system either out of ignorance or self preservation will realize that to live in hell is just that. Living in hell. The structure of the slave system will easily collapse under the weight of its own lies if confronted with that kind of undeniable truth. When the endgame comes, there will be only hot or cold. The people of the world will no longer be able to fool themselves about what is going on. They will either side with humanity, or with the beast system. To confront the beast in all its un-holy glory in the interim will require great courage however. Many will perish before it, naked and alone only comforted by their conviction in the truth of their testament. It is absolutely necessary for this to occur, it will only be by the sacrifice of this type of brave individual that the rest of mankind will have a chance to be exposed to the truth.

To those that call for violence to bring about change now I say you are strong, proactive, and misguided. No victory can be achieved without the turning of the tide, without a mental atomic bomb going off in the consciousness of the western world. Blowing up elitists, or monkey-wrenching, or fighting guerrilla style in the streets will only hasten martial law and get innocent bystanders killed. This type of action will only further alienate the public from our message, driving them strait into the imagined protection of the slave system.

If we engage in the info war, if we can break the chain of humanities rise and fall, then we might have a chance to make it to the next level. The best in men must overcome the worst. This is not only a statement referring to the two opposing forces in society competing for the future. This is literally an internal choice in how we face this conflict personally. For there to be real success we must each become soldier priests of the truth. We must be willing to lay down our lives, comfort, family, and anything else necessary to reach the minds of our brothers and sisters.

If you believe we can win, then you must have some essential faith in the human spirit. You must believe that people are good, and confronted with the choice between good and evil, falsehoods and lies; they will make the right choice. To believe otherwise is to join the enemy. A lack of faith in the human condition can only lead to darkness. In that line of thinking the only logical path to follow is to use the same tools of violence and fear against the enemy. In doing so you become that which you have attempted to destroy. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

In the end even that fiery prophet Malcolm X realized the true nature of the enemy. In his final speeches, he spoke to greater divisions within the human race. He began to see the world in its true aspect. Not one of black and white, but good and evil. That was the reason for his assassination. So long as he polarized people he was allowed to continue his work. It was only when he looked past that polarization to the possibilities of what a unified humanity could accomplish did he become a threat to the statue quo. He had learned one of the great spiritual realties of the human condition. –

Hate breeds Hate in an endless cycle.

This is the real nature of the war on terror. It is the war within the human heart; it is the struggle for humanity to gain its emancipation from fear.

If instead we succumb to that fear and its child violence, if we attempt to meet the darkness with darkness, then we will fall into a trap the enemy has cleverly laid before us. We will engage the enemy in his method of combat, a battle we can not win.

I have a small arsenal at my house. I have water filters, medicine, supplies of food. My girlfriend is teaching me how to horse back ride while I teach her how to shoot. I have maps of my city and countryside as well as a friend that is a pilot less then five minutes from house. I keep all my gear packed, in the garage, and ready to go. When martial law comes, and the Republic falls I’ll be in full go mode. I’m no fool. I’ve made my peace with God and will do my duty.

With that said.

I’m no fool. Do not be tempted by the dark side. Do not succumb to fear. Fear it the most primary tool of control over humanity. It always has been. The time to forcibly resist will come no doubt. But now is not that time. Prepare and educate everyone you can, but don’t take the bait. You are being set up, led down the path to folly, a path that can only lead to defeat and failure.

Until the Republic falls, until the storm troopers come, I will stand by non-violence. Only through the dissemination of truth can we hope to achieve our ends. Truth is our only best weapon, and as you know truth can not be forced, it must be accepted. Great revolutions are the work of principles rather than weapons, and are achieved first in the moral, and afterwards in the material sphere. When you are truly concerned with a better future for humanity then you can never advocate preemptive violence. What kind of future would we make for ourselves; will we replace the old system of hate and oppression with another by a different name? Never let us imagine that we can pursue a good end by evil means, any outcome is doubtful: the evil effect on ourselves is certain. When our day comes we must defend our Republic, our families, and our future with every fiber of our being. Untill that day however we must not lose sight of the real objective, to change the world. No amount of preemptive struggle in the physical sphere, no matter how attractive, will ever lead to that goal.

AS Martin Luther King said –
Through violence you can murder a liar but you can’t establish truth. Through violence you may murder a hater but not hate. Darkness can not put out darkness. Only light can do that.

As we confront our enemy we must endeavor not to become our enemy. We must be as gentle as doves and as wise as serpents. We must know when to act and how to engage for maximum results. To follow in the footsteps of the great prophets and revolutionaries of truth in humanities history is no easy task. It requires strength of character and fortitude of spirit not easily found. It requires patience and hard work. It is rarely rewarded in any immediate sense of gratification. In the end equation however it is the only hope for real substantive change

I think we can blame our friends in the DHS for all the unconfirmed arrests. Funny how a so called “free country” doesn’t respect its right to peaceful assembly. Big brother is at it again.

is that something you wrote yourself, HackMkUltra? or did you copy/paste it from somewhere?

whoever wrote that, their argument is that armed struggle is not strategic now, but that it will be later:

Sooner or later, there will be armed struggle. The elite power grid will never willingly surrender its dominion. Instead it will fight to the bitter end, and if possible, in the final equation it will attempt to destroy all of humanity rather than be destroyed. The only chance of winning that final struggle is based upon the possibility that the vast majority of the people of the world will not go along with that suicide pact. Instead of turning their guns on us, enough soldiers will instead turn their weapons on the commanders ordering them to fire.

that is exactly what i am saying, only i seem to think the hour is a little later than does the author of the piece you posted.

the author’s argument seems to be summed up here:

Blowing up elitists, or monkey-wrenching, or fighting guerrilla style in the streets will only hasten martial law and get innocent bystanders killed. This type of action will only further alienate the public from our message, driving them strait into the imagined protection of the slave system.

statements like these, which rationalize inaction in the social war on the grounds of prioritizing action in the info war, are designed to absolve people of the very serious responsibility we have now to take direct action against the system. we rationalize not taking up arms because “that will come later,” and “first we need to change hearts and minds.” rubbish. we don’t have time to wait for a shift in consciousness. that will come with the systemic collapse of civilization. our job here and now is to bring down civilization as quickly as possible, for the benefit of all life on earth, both present and future, both human and non-human alike. the only measure of success is the health of the land base, and civilization is systematically destroying the natural world. the sooner it comes down, the better for the land base, and thus, for all life.

and those who think we can sustain current population levels or anything close to them are deluded. no forms of advanced technology will allow us to do that, and if one does, it will be to the detriment of all life and the planet as a whole.

no doubt you Alex Jones fans out there will proceed to accuse me of being a new world order pawn promoting genocide, but the plain fact of life on this planet is that levels of biomass are regulated by solar energy input, and we, though the use of non-renewable fossil fuels, were able to take millions of years worth of ancient solar energy stored as hydrocarbons and release it in less than a hundred years (oil is ancient sunlight stored through photosynthesis), leading to a corresponding exponential increase in the population of humans and the species they propagate. this cannot and will not last. any extension of it would be highly harmful and tragic.

the earth can probably sustain two billion human beings at most, and even then, not in the context of an industrialized consumer civilization such as ours.

i am not promoting managed population reduction or reproductive control. the collapse brought about by the creations of our own blind and arrogant hubris will take care of that. we’ll be too busy trying to survive ourselves. people get ready.

HackMKUltra – That’s a beautiful piece of writing – both in terms of style and content. It echoes my own feelings and thoughts on the matter but I’d be moved by it even if it didn’t. Nice work! It’s good to see people thinking beyond the clichés. You should blog it so it doesn’t just get lost in here.

It is my piece that i wrote a long time ago. Its title is: A Revolution of the Mind, yo can find it on my articles section, blog section, and on my web site frequencyclear.tv

Shifty,

what would you think about a debate between you and I concerning this? I think it would be worth doing.

Something like a list of points to cover conerning our different postions and approach to this?

i’d be interested in seeing that

i’d definitely be interested in that debate. one of you should blog it. i’m veering to the side of the necessity of revolution. if we wait too long we will feel the wrath of capitalist thinking.

tell a capitalist he is wrong and he’ll tell you he’s right. threaten to take away his posessions and he’ll threaten your life.

“Through violence you can murder a liar but you can’t establish truth. Through violence you may murder a hater but not hate. Darkness can not put out darkness. Only light can do that.”

this is purely metaphysical and you can expect as much from a christian…

what i mean is although Dr. King is awesome, his statement holds no weight because it is not based on facts. it is based on a belief with some good bible style light and dark references to good and evil.

he also believes in a religion which instructs you to “turn the other cheek” instead of revolt when the man gets you down. i believe we should keep this secular.

Nice job.

a debate would be excellent. this is a busy week for me though. i’m getting ready for a Gaza rally on Friday and an MLK Day walk-out, march, and rally on Monday. I also have an SDS meeting Wednesday and court for the Zombie March on Thursday.

but yeah, let’s start formulating the format of the debate, etc.

it is something i’d like to take my time with. i have my arguments, but they will be better reinforced with a little research and statistics (to establish estimates as to the lateness of the hour, etc.).

anyways, great idea. i’m all for it.

nice article shifty, great response Hack

i seriously, sincerely hate the attitude behind statements like this:

There was also some petit-bourgeois store-owner complaining about his front window, whining that he is also against police brutality. Fuck him. If revolution is going to be real, the whole system that keeps police around to protect commodity relations must be abolished

we’re to assume that any business owner is automatically “bourgeois”, and that any and all businesses are part of the “system that keeps police around to protect commodity relations” – rather than acting on some basic intelligence and human empathy

fuck that

i’m all for riots when they’re needed, and i think they were very needed in Greece and Oakland, but this attitude absolutely has to go.

also:

his statement holds no weight because it is not based on facts. it is based on a belief with some good bible style light and dark references to good and evil

but it is true that you can’t murder an idea (like hate), and that darkness can’t get rid of darkness. it’s pretty factual, and in my opinion, pretty straight on the point.

however i’ve always argued that you need both a Martin AND a Malcolm to really get shit done.

No. 5 deserves thanks for calling out some of the less than intelligent comments in this thread.

Great article Shifty, though I would say that your opening is a touch silly—I live in NorCal and no the greek riots did not inspire folks in Oakland…knowing that a young guy got shot in the back by a BART pig while complying with orders is what set it off.

Riot!
The unbeatable high!
As Jello sang, tonight it is a blast…but then what?

And remember April 1992? Or is that ancient history? What did that change? and those riots were much larger than the Oakland riots, they happened nationally…but what was the result other than a timeless and incredible Sublime song? I mean what has happened in Oakland pales in comparison to that uprising.

It is all just a cycle, a manageable cycle that gives the authorities a chance to practice crowd control with a new generation of pigs.

Lastly, what with all the radical talk that one finds on GNN, I still stand by the old monkey wrenching adage:
Those who talk, don’t know.
Those who know, don’t talk.

Peace out. Stay safe. And may you be invisible to the cops.

Shifty,

I’ll email you early next week so we can start figuring out how we want to do this.

Toad – “we’re to assume that any business owner is automatically “bourgeois”, and that any and all businesses are part of the “system that keeps police around to protect commodity relations” – rather than acting on some basic intelligence and human empathy”

Well said Mr Toad. Seems to me that automatically calling a store owner in a poor neighborhood “bourgeois” is the kind of thing that emerges out of the mouths and pens of college educated bourgeois types who have no idea of what it’s like to be poor and to build a business! (And don’t frequent the stores or live in the neighborhood!) Dismiss the people and their needs and truly the only person you’re fighting for is yourself and you become greedy and selfish and just as willing to sacrifice others for your ideology as the people you decry for sacrificing others for their greedy, selfish ideology.

I look forward to seeing Hack and Shifty talk through their positions.

“Those who talk, don’t know.
Those who know, don’t talk.”

ok cowboy…?

Debate?
Bring it on – Please!!
This strikes to the core of what leaves so many, including myself, questioning our intentions, motivations, actions…. input welcome…always.

“the author’s argument seems to be summed up here:..... statements like these, which rationalize inaction in the social war on the grounds of prioritizing action in the info war, are designed to absolve people of the very serious responsibility we have now to take direct action against the system. we rationalize not taking up arms because “that will come later,” and “first we need to change hearts and minds.” rubbish. “

Bullshit. Sorry but it is and you know that. The statements you quoted are not there to rationalize inaction, they are there to rationalize another form of action which you disagree with. Don’t try to hide a difference in philosophy as somehow meaning another person is wrong. They aren’t wrong in what they say, if people are working towards a solution to the problem that isn’t to “bring down civilization as quickly as possible” than what they said is entirely true.

I would personally say what’s needed is a mix of the two, there are some actions that call for violence. Seattle, for example, was a good example of violent action that worked. However I still say that, while yes the world is on a downward spiral, it doesn’t mean we need to push it down faster, We need to let it sink while working on methods to build it up again better, cleaner and more sustainably. Bringing down civilization as quickly as possible, while sounds fun, wouldn’t solve anything in the long run unless we’re talking about the extinction of humanity, which I assume you have the sanity to not be talking about. You’d have humanity kill off a large portion of ourselves and than do it all again. The shift in consciousness IS needed so that we have the common sense and intelligence, hopefully, to not just rebuild another world like we have now. The shift is happening in many countries though not nearly fast enough to save us, especially not with China going through what amounts to pretty much the polar opposite shift in consciousness, from a Bike loving, organic eating mostly vegetarian society to a car driving meat engorged industrial society. Sad to be here watching it….

However I still say that, while yes the world is on a downward spiral, it doesn’t mean we need to push it down faster, We need to let it sink while working on methods to build it up again better, cleaner and more sustainably. Bringing down civilization as quickly as possible, while sounds fun, wouldn’t solve anything in the long run unless we’re talking about the extinction of humanity, which I assume you have the sanity to not be talking about.

heh, yes, you are correct, the world is on a downward spiral… where the fuck have you been, bro?

sanity,as well as sustainability are relative, however, i personally advocate canabalism. theres potential in those wasted breaths and lots of calories…

burning the house down would be way fun. i’d try it once.

good to see your typing skills again

I ordered both “How nonviolence protects the state” and “Pacifism as pathology”. Both were damn good, although kinda similar….

Word of warning, dont read these books right before the weekend when you plan on getting loaded and walking around outside late at night when there is the possibility of running into the police. Especially if you have a deep seated disliking of authority.

Or if you do, bring along a small Chinese girl who is easy to cry and convince you that throwing a rock at a stopped police cruiser is a bad idea.

“bring along a small Chinese girl who is easy to cry and convince you that throwing a rock at a stopped police cruiser is a bad idea.”

Outsourcing of common sense.

How Canadian.

Not_Uberche: How is a violently repressed individual supposed to know when to bend over and take the state’s dick, and when to have violent uprising.

????

“heh, yes, you are correct, the world is on a downward spiral… where the fuck have you been, bro?”

Growing slowly more and more Jaded while consoling myself in the arms of young hot Chinese girls. It’s a hard life here in China.

“Or if you do, bring along a small Chinese girl who is easy to cry and convince you that throwing a rock at a stopped police cruiser is a bad idea.”

Sweet Christ man… That girl has ruined you! Did you at least go to the window and scream at them like in JiaXing? Seriously… you need to get back here, you’re losing it.

Deaner: When you have enough support to actually do something other than pissing people off and destroying your own neighbourhood.

I’m not saying Don’t fight back. I’m saying pretty much every revolution and fight in history that has achieved things has had a peaceful side and a violent side. People hold up Gandhi as some sort of saint but his fight only was successful because, while he was a pacifist, there were others who were fighting through other means.

I have respect for shiftshapers but he was making it sound like supporting non-violent action is tantamount to doing nothing and that’s just retarded. You need the non-violent side and you need it to be separated from the violent side so that the general populace has somewhere to go when they start to wake up. People don’t go from “Lets drive my Hummer to the corner store to buy some milk!” to “BURN IT ALL DOWN!” over night, it’s a process and all of the process is needed.

he was making it sound like supporting non-violent action is tantamount to doing nothing

not at all. but at this point, it would serve us well to recognize that this has devolved to a matter of semantics.

my point was that the most “non-violent” thing you can do in the face of inherently violent private property is to dismantle both said property as well as the very system that perpetuates it. i’m not saying there are not ways to be “non-violent” that do not involve property destruction or sabotage, that would be strategically effective. i just seek to challenge the notion that the destruction of inherently violent inanimate objects is itself somehow a “violent” act. i see this as a position that prioritizes private property over life, and my definition of “violence” is that it can only be done to living, feeling beings.

that is the problem with this debate that Hack and I are supposed to have. to start a true debate, certain definitions of terms must be agreed upon from the start, or the entire debate will end up revolving around semantic differences in definition, interpretation, and understanding. if he and i do not start off with a common definition of “violence,” we aren’t going to get anywhere. we’ll just argue in circles around my above articulated, and very stubborn, position on what is and what is not “violence.”

i’ll be happy if we can settle on the definition of “violence” as harm done to living things and living things only. i will not accept a definition that includes private property, particularly the sort that is itself inherently violent (the ecosystems, creatures, and cultures destroyed to extract and process the materials a building is made of, and the ecosystem wiped out that used to exist where the building now sits, for example).

“i just seek to challenge the notion that the destruction of inherently violent inanimate objects is itself somehow a “violent” act.”

Thats a waste of time. The people who believe any act of destruction (not sanctioned by the state of course) is violent, either will never be convinced otherwise or will draw you in to pointless semantical and moral arguments.

“we aren’t going to get anywhere. we’ll just argue in circles”

You know it, yet you clearly enjoy jumping into that circle. Are you a masochist?

You are better served going out and blowing something up. Actions my friend speak louder than words.

We should compile a list of things that seriously need being destroyed, and for each one we should clearly state why it needs such action. Then we can start the discussion.

Are you a masochist?

perhaps.

You are better served going out and blowing something up.

explosives intimidate me. not my forte.

Actions my friend speak louder than words.

that is a statement i can agree with.

We should compile a list of things that seriously need being destroyed, and for each one we should clearly state why it needs such action. Then we can start the discussion.

that’s the easy part. and also the part that should never be talked about through electronic means of communication. regardless, i don’t think such intelligence will matter until enough fucking people in this country get fucked over by the government. this, i suspect, will happen around the time when the government decides to actively deploy those units they have now placed within the US (those are not the right words. the units are already technically “actively deployed.” i just mean when they bust them out to quell dissent). it will happen if a few million more people get evicted from their homes, to the point where there is a mass movement of eviction resistance and housing occupation (which has already begun). i cannot however really predict how the “current economic crisis” (total systemic collapse) will unfold. i just know that it is inevitable in any system predicated upon unlimited growth and expansion within a fundamentally limited ecological context.

the other side of the targets (the infrastructure of the death machine of industrial civilization) is the infrastructure we must establish simply so that we may survive without the system of global ecocide that we have become very very dependent upon. that’s the hardest part. the mass of people will never attack the system upon which they depend for the basics of food, water, and shelter. as long as the system provides them with those things, and as long as the global communities of resistance fail to offer sustainable and viable alternatives, people will defend to the death this system that provides for them, just as indigenous people defend the forests and rivers upon which they depend. it’s a basic instinct. the good news is that this system is about to have a total failure in its ability to provide for the population it created through a temporary boost of cheap energy that is now coming to an end. as this system fails to provide the basics that have kept people in line, and as we work to dismantle that system as quickly as possible for the sake of all life, human and non-human alike, we must put equal effort into the other side of the coin: establishing the alternative infrastructure of survival, and indeed, flourishing.

Will you anarchist be able to replace Coca Cola. Will you be able to supply the masses with 60 zillion gallons of Diet Coke a day? No! So forget it, I’ll going with the establishment until you guys find a suitable replacement for Diet Coke. Oh ya, I need salty pretzels and the Super Bowl every year. I could live with a smaller car but you anarchists must provide decent GPSs. Do you guys have GPS satellites ready to go?

“my point was that the most “non-violent” thing you can do in the face of inherently violent private property is to dismantle both said property as well as the very system that perpetuates it.”

Dismantle it and then…?

This lack of infrastructure has always been the failing of the groups who advocate tearing down the system. You can’t just tear down the system and all of a sudden we are living in happy go lucky organic communities with communal governments.

I’m not saying don’t be violent, just be violent in an intelligent manner. Some of the shit that comes out of these retards mouths is just stupid

“There was also some petit-bourgeois store-owner complaining about his front window, whining that he is also against police brutality. Fuck him.”

‘Oh My god! he owns a store! BURN HIM!’ this kind of ‘tear down everything’ bullshit just makes everyone look like a bunch of angry teens. Yeah if I had a store and some cunt threw a rock through my window I’d be pissed too, I don’t care if you call it violence or not, you’re still breaking something that allows me to feed my family. Take your anger to those who actually deserve it. You think the government cares if you put a rock through some independent store owner’s window? Or you burn some random guy’s car? That’s the violence that isn’t needed because all it does is ensure you will NEVER have the support needed to create the infrastructure that is needed to actually have a valid alternative to the current system. Until you can show people another way of life that works in our world you have no way to gain their support. If you feel the need to burn something or break something I’d hope you have the imagination to think of something a little more deserving than your neighbour’s car.

I have news for the anarchists. They are not going to bringing down any system anytime soon. What they will do is piss people off by smashing their private property, calling it an action, getting arrested, getting some articles written about themselves and writing about it at GNN.

But tearing down the system, uh uh.

You have another answer?

“Yeah if I had a store and some cunt threw a rock through my window I’d be pissed too, I don’t care if you call it violence or not, you’re still breaking something that allows me to feed my family.”

Windows have some kind of control over your family’s feeding time?

All the more reason to break them!

“Windows have some kind of control over your family’s feeding time?”

People like to shop in places that don’t have shards of broken glass everywhere and don’t have piles of snow in the winter. Strange that.

I don’t really see what the big deal about moving a couple more blocks till you find a McDonalds/NikeTown/Gap or any other big store like that before letting your anger out. Talk tot he local businesses, recruit them into helping setup a viable alternative, bill it as screwing the big box stores, get them to help finance setting up a community garden or something like that that can help feed and sustain the people who need it most.

“People like to shop in places that don’t have shards of broken glass everywhere and don’t have piles of snow in the winter.”

Américain impérialiste d‘écume de chien bourgeois!

if he and i do not start off with a common definition of “violence,” we aren’t going to get anywhere

sooo you have to have an agreement about what constitutes “violence” before you’ll talk about it with someone…but you don’t need to have the same agreement before you torch their car or bust up their business?

also if we’re going to complain about semantics, you really should be replacing the phrase “dismantle property” with the more accurate “break shit”

see it just sounds better this way:

my point was that the most “non-violent” thing you can do in the face of inherently violent private property is to break that shit

“is the infrastructure we must establish” – This bit has to come first, otherwise when the shit hits the fan someone else will offer an alternative (realistic or not) that the demoralized will have faith in, and you (we) will have nothing but a Utopian ideal. Look at the Russian Revolution.

five for toad’s last post. Break that shit.

start planting gardens. learning how to forage and hunt. about edibles and medicinals. how to store and preserve. how to make clothes and shelter. how to purify water.

the very basic way the system has us is in the fact that it provides us with those basics. other infrastructure will also be needed, but most importantly we need to learn how to take care of ourselves once again without a vast, global, and ecocidal infrastructure to provide for us.

start planting gardens. learning how to forage and hunt. about edibles and medicinals. how to store and preserve. how to make clothes and shelter. how to purify water.

Y’r churning into a injun.

i have native roots. racist.

I am not a racist, I am joking with you but you are serious.

waiting for the Hack vs Shifty debate bump

bump

“start planting gardens. learning how to forage and hunt. about edibles and medicinals. how to store and preserve. how to make clothes and shelter. how to purify water.”

You know, if enough people start doing that, the state’s stormtroopers will come and rip up your plants.

Start learning how to make bombs and network to form cells.

Anything less and you might as well just get a job working in an office and spend your free time studying the stock market.

“that’s the easy part. and also the part that should never be talked about through electronic means of communication.”

bullshit and bullshit.

Show me somewhere someone has made a list. Putting it out there for everyone to see is the best thing that one could do. I would do it, but I am too busy. Sorry.

if enough people start doing that, the state’s stormtroopers will come and rip up your plants. Start learning how to make bombs and network to form cells.

that’s the kind of balance i am talking about. we need both. but again, i am not an explosives person, just like i’m not a surgeon. you don’t want me making bombs any more than you want me operating on your internal fucking organs. i know what my job is, and i’m working on it. i leave the bombs to the explosive experts. and i stay as far the fuck away from that shit as possible. not because of the potential legal ramifications, but rather, because of the potential physical ramifications that can be caused by the explosives themselves. they have great potential for the destruction of ecocidal infrastructure (like dams, etc.), but i would still prefer to keep my distance. again, this has nothing to do with legality. i feel the same way about the legal use of explosives for excavation, mining, etc. – did you knwo cell phones can set off blasting caps? that’s what’s up with the cell phones off signs in some construction zones. sketchy. fuck all that.

Show me somewhere someone has made a list.

yes, because i’m stupid. though such intelligence exists, i do not possess it, nor do i feel the need to. if i did have such information in a specific, detailed, and well-articulated form, i certainly wouldn’t go around posting about it on the internet. that would be just plain stupid.

anyways, the basic infrastructure of the police state is quite obvious, and has certain identifiable choke points, or bottlenecks. the resistance against the nazis, for example, started by fighting the nazis guerrilla style, then moved on to attacking weapons and munitions factories, which was a step up, but then they took another step and started targeting the transportation infrastructure and the ball bearing factories, because without transportation, it doesn’t matter if your arms factories are up and running or not, and without the ball bearing factories, the arms factories and transportation infrastructure could not be rebuild when it was targeted and destroyed by the resistance. this is the sort of tactical and strategic action we need.

“i certainly wouldn’t go around posting about it on the internet. that would be just plain stupid.”

You could go to a net bar and register a fake name on a disposable email and tada!

I mean, just a web link… whatever. There is no such list, and its not that dangerous to make one.

Lets start.

Throw rocks at the windows¹ of random car/truck/heavy machinery dealerships. They have little security, there are many of them. The auto industry is one of the largest producers of toxic pollution on the planet. A serious focused rock throwing campaign directed at random car dealerships, in the short term would certainly affect the sale of and in the long term the production of, automobiles.

Throwing rocks at car dealerships has the added bonus that it really doesnt require much in the way of media releases explaining the motivation for the action. Even the most die hard capitalist can recognize the destructive properties of the automotive industry.

Anyone else?

¹ is a subtle metaphor..

(I suppose I am a bit more paranoid than I thought…)

good post

“start planting gardens. learning how to forage and hunt. about edibles and medicinals. how to store and preserve. how to make clothes and shelter. how to purify water.’

But the problem is no one is doing this on a large enough scale.

You call for the destruction of the society we live in as soon as possible but you have no solution for how to live afterwards. Why would anyone take this seriously?

We would live in peace dude!!!!!

Oh my goddess why is that so hard for you to understand???// You are making the flowers cry!!!!!!!!

Live in peace until Mad Max came and burned our camp to the ground for gas….. Or was it the other dicks who did it? Whatever. Someone would burn the camp and rape our women and this time it wouldnt’ be you doing the raping which would make you cry I bet.

You call for the destruction of the society we live in as soon as possible but you have no solution for how to live afterwards.

i call for the destruction of civilization, not society. but that’s semantics, i suppose.

regardless, we have many solutions, and always have. we don’t have solutions for those who seek “business as usual” or anything like it, and most, right now, reject our proposed solutions because they challenge and undermine everything we’ve come to depend on. people are unwilling to hear solutions that require radical and drastic changes in lifestyle. anyways, as far as solutions “for how to live afterwards,” one of my favorite projects is In The Wake...

Unfortunately the answers of In The Wake are banned in China it seems. So what answers do they have to the question “how will you feed and sustain 300 million people in the USA alone?”

Or how about how will you deal with the complete power vacuum that would result from the destruction of Socie… oh wait… I mean civilization?

what answers do they have to the question “how will you feed and sustain 300 million people in the USA alone?”

exactly. there are no solutions that will allow us to continue on a level anywhere near what we have created through cheap, abundant energy (which is a thing of the past).

how will you deal with the complete power vacuum that would result from the destruction of Socie… oh wait… I mean civilization?

civilization is the centralization of power. there will be no power vacuum. power must be decentralized, horizontalized, and redistributed to the communities and people whose lives decisions effect. your question is symptomatic of the unfortunate inculcation and colonization of our minds with the idea that power can only reside in centralized, vertical, hierarchical forms.

we seek power with, rather than power against.

do you ever stop being serious?

cheap, abundant energy isn’t necessarily a thing of the past

Are you thinking of hooking somekind of generator up to Shifty’s keyboard?

cheap, abundant energy isn’t necessarily a thing of the past

time will tell, i suppose. but to tell you the truth, my greatest fear is that it isn’t, because if it isn’t, then industrial civilization will only be able to extend its ultimately terminal life span, in turn extending its pogrom of total ecocide.

peak oil is perhaps the only thing that is going to save the planet from humanity. if it is overcome technologically, we’re really fucked. but i for one don’t think this will happen, regardless of the delusions of “The Venus Project” crowd.

the collapse of industrial civilization isnt going to happen anytime soon.

My point?

Take a breath Shifty! This isnt a competition!

“exactly. there are no solutions that will allow us to continue on a level anywhere near what we have created through cheap, abundant energy (which is a thing of the past).”

So basically you are saying, kill of a couple million? Wow… can’t understand why Anarchy doesn’t get more supporters!

“Civilization is the centralization of power. there will be no power vacuum. power must be decentralized, horizontalized, and redistributed to the communities and people whose lives decisions effect. your question is symptomatic of the unfortunate inculcation and colonization of our minds with the idea that power can only reside in centralized, vertical, hierarchical forms.”

So basically let people take care of themselves? Get rid of centralized power? People are greedy assholes who will hurt each other for a couple of pieces of paper that their leaders claim are worth gold (which they aren’t). How do you propose to combat this part of humanity? Human’s migrate towards power, it’s not some dirty secret, it’s common knowledge. Who will be the leaders of this new revolution? Or do you honestly propose a society of true Anarchy?

time will tell, i suppose. but to tell you the truth, my greatest fear is that it isn’t, because if it isn’t, then industrial civilization will only be able to extend its ultimately terminal life span, in turn extending its pogrom of total ecocide.

i don’t see it that way at all; i think that a paradigm shift away from fossil fuels and towards renewable, clean energy could be the best thing for all of us

“i don’t see it that way at all; i think that a paradigm shift away from fossil fuels and towards renewable, clean energy could be the best thing for all of us”

Not if you are looking for the downfall of Soci… Civilization i mean! Than some way for us to survive without eating each other would just be a damn shame…

well, presumably we could still make room for cannibalism in a post-fossil fuels, clean energy world

Soylent Green IS people! ...er, sorry, it had to be said….

So basically you are saying, kill of a couple million?

not at all. i’m saying we already have, though the irresponsibility of our creations. systemic collapse will be the cause of depopulation to sustainable levels, not genocide.

So basically let people take care of themselves?

and one another, on a level of communal self-governance, yes.

Get rid of centralized power?

indeed.

People are greedy assholes who will hurt each other for a couple of pieces of paper that their leaders claim are worth gold (which they aren’t). How do you propose to combat this part of humanity? Human’s migrate towards power, it’s not some dirty secret, it’s common knowledge.

alas, this is what it so often comes down to: does someone see humanity as fundamentally good, or fundamentally bad. You appear to be of the latter variety. in my understanding, the vast majority of greed is systemic, and there are bountiful anthropological and sociological examples that debunk the “homo economicus” economic man bullshit. humans are not fundamentally or inherently greedy. that is a result of surplus economics and the centralization of power and authority.

Who will be the leaders of this new revolution?

communities. the people whose lives are effected by decisions. people should not make decisions for others that do not effect their own lives. people should be invested with the power to make the decisions that directly effect them, not some bureaucrat or politician in Washington or at the State capital.

Or do you honestly propose a society of true Anarchy?

that is a semantically loaded question, but yes, under my understanding and definition of what that would be, that is exactly what i and other anarchists propose. we do not claim that such a society will be free of injustice, but we do claim that it will have much less injustice than our current world, as injustice is rooted in systemic inequality and the concentration of power and wealth by a few.

“Soylent Green IS people! ...er, sorry, it had to be said….”

And people IS tasty! therefore Soylent Green=Tasty!

i think that a paradigm shift away from fossil fuels and towards renewable, clean energy could be the best thing for all of us

not if it isn’t accompanied by a paradigm shift in the way we understand ourselves, the natural world, and our place and roll in it. the extraction of non-renewable energy sources may be driving industrial ecocide, but it isn’t the only part of it. renewable energy without a change in consciousness will only cause us to continue mining and deforesting. as long as humanity sees and considers itself as separate from and somehow above the limitations of the natural world, our problems will only continue. the idea that technology will allow us to escape the consequences of our own creations and continue to exceed the carrying capacity of the planet is itself symptomatic of this very disease of the psyche and mind. only a creature that considers itself above the limits of the natural world would attempt such a thing.

“not if it isn’t accompanied by a paradigm shift in the way we understand ourselves, “

And how to you propose to teach people how to understand themselves?

I think most people understand themselves just fine and dont need someone to tell them.

I think what you mean is, they dont understand how you see them, and therefore need to be taught. You will probably need to build camps, with guards because obviously people are fat and happy and will want to go back to their chairs and tvs and computers. So basically you need to build armed re-education camps.

That sounds awesome.

not if it isn’t accompanied by a paradigm shift in the way we understand ourselves, the natural world, and our place and roll in it.

i’d argue that one thing drives the other

the idea that technology will allow us to escape the consequences of our own creations and continue to exceed the carrying capacity of the planet is itself symptomatic of this very disease of the psyche and mind. only a creature that considers itself above the limits of the natural world would attempt such a thing.

i find that pretty insulting and disingenuous

there’s no such thing as technology that exceeds the limits of the natural world

But there are technologies that produce results that exceed the limits of the natural world.

if those technologies and their results exist in the natural world, how could they be exceeding said limits?

Well I’m not sure if I want to be a “roll” in the natural world but it may be nice to have a roll to make that soylent green into a sandwich…..

“if those technologies and their results exist in the natural world, how could they be exceeding said limits?”

What are you a god damned philosopher?

The fucking polar bears man, jesus christ.

I’m done with this thread. Between Shifty ignoring me and you getting all semantical and philosophical….

Bye.

“not at all. i’m saying we already have, though the irresponsibility of our creations. systemic collapse will be the cause of depopulation to sustainable levels, not genocide.”

haha ok let me rephrase that. let them die because you want to see shit collapse instead of working to save them because, and lets be honest here, a collapse of the civilization we have no would result in at least 10’s if not hundreds of millions dead. And this is your answer… huh. Good luck finding support! I’m sure you’ll get it far quicker than a shift in consciousness within our own society.

yeah I agree Anarchy is the end goal but to pretend it’s something that will be gotten in one swoop is lunacy.

“alas, this is what it so often comes down to: does someone see humanity as fundamentally good, or fundamentally bad. You appear to be of the latter variety. in my understanding, the vast majority of greed is systemic, and there are bountiful anthropological and sociological examples that debunk the “homo economicus” economic man bullshit. humans are not fundamentally or inherently greedy. that is a result of surplus economics and the centralization of power and authority.”

On a local scale Anarchy and communes and the such have worked but on a global scale it has never worked because there is always some cunt who works the people up into a mass of anger over some bullshit reason and convinces them their neighbours are bad. It’s not about whether or not humanity is good/bad and maybe this is where you get lost, it doesn’t require humanity to be bad, it requires one charasmatic person to be bad. One person to convince others that they have something to fear from others and that the only way to combat it is to join together as a group and fight, under a leader of course. If you honestly think a break down in society is going to change the world so that people aren’t susceptible to this kind of fear mongering you either haven’t been paying attention the last 8 years (hell, a lot longer than that) or you are just actively willing blindness on yourself to get out of the realization that Anarchy, at this stage in human developement IS great in theory but shit in practice.

“communities. the people whose lives are effected by decisions. people should not make decisions for others that do not effect their own lives. people should be invested with the power to make the decisions that directly effect them, not some bureaucrat or politician in Washington or at the State capital.”

What universe do you live in?! Check out Prop 8 for a good example. People like to do so and a break down in civilization isn’t going to change the insanely religious into some sort of happy go lucky swingers club.

how to you propose to teach people how to understand themselves?

i don’t. but i suspect total systemic collapse will, out of necessity, do so for the survivors.

I think most people understand themselves just fine and dont need someone to tell them.

they need the earth to tell them. they need to listen to the natural world.

or do you really think people “understand themselves” and their true place within the greater community of life on this planet “just fine”?!? i sure don’t. i think humanity is all fucked up.

I think what you mean is, they dont understand how you see them, and therefore need to be taught. You will probably need to build camps, with guards because obviously people are fat and happy and will want to go back to their chairs and tvs and computers. So basically you need to build armed re-education camps. That sounds awesome.

Jesus FUCKING Christ, do you even bother to listen to or think about what i am saying? or to you just cream your jeans from putting words in other peoples’ mouths? i have never claimed the intent or necessity of teaching anybody anything. even I am subject to the things of which i speak. as a participant in civilization, i am just as lost as the rest of these psychotic apes bearing thermonuclear arsenals.

i’d argue that one thing drives the other

as do i. total systemic collapse will drive the realizations that are necessary for the survivors to continue living on this planet.

there’s no such thing as technology that exceeds the limits of the natural world

that’s the most absurd thing i’ve ever heard, and i’d love to hear you defend it. any technology or system that requires the importation of resources and the extraction of materials from the natural world at a rate greater than that at which the earth can replace said materials and resources is fundamentally and terminally unsustainable.

there are technologies that produce results that exceed the limits of the natural world.

that is true as well.

if those technologies and their results exist in the natural world, how could they be exceeding said limits?

as i said above, by requiring the consumption of more resources than the earth can sustain/produce.

It is the inequalities in our society that allow us to tolerate each other.

“It is the inequalities in our society that allow us to tolerate each other.”

It’s certainly the only reason I tolerate your poor ass… It helps me feel above you, like I’m giving something back to the little people… you know?

Exactly, and its my moral superiority that makes me feel so good when I see you rooting around in your vile pit of sin and debauchery.

I’m not sure if I want to be a “roll” in the natural world

you already have a roll within the natural world, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. but failing to do so it at your own peril, as well as the peril of all life.

Shifty ignoring me

i did? my bad! it was unintentional…

let them die because you want to see shit collapse instead of working to save them because, and lets be honest here, a collapse of the civilization we have no would result in at least 10’s if not hundreds of millions dead.

the earth can sustain maybe 2 billion human beings, and even then, certainly not at the level of activity we have now. i don’t like these facts any more than you do, or their implications and consequences. it’s a tragic situation. but using “advanced” technology to attempt to solve the solution now will only exacerbate the problem later. would you rather be faced with a population reduction to around 2 billion starting from our current population levels, or the population levels decades or even centuries from now? either way, we will have to reduce our population. there just isn’t any way around that, unless we begin to colonize outer space, which we don’t have enough cheap energy left for anyways. that’s why i say we need to bring down civilization as soon as possible. the longer we wait, the harder the crash will be, and the more people will die. the best we can hope for is some sort of “soft(er)” crash, with a minimal loss of life. but even that outlook seems unlikely on our current trajectory.

yeah I agree Anarchy is the end goal but to pretend it’s something that will be gotten in one swoop is lunacy.

sorry, but where or when did i say it would be? total systemic collapse will be far from “one swoop.” if anything fits “one swoop,” it’s the idea that technology can and will sage us.

it doesn’t require humanity to be bad, it requires one charasmatic person to be bad.

only if people are willing to allow power and authority to be centralized. that’s the whole point of horizontal, decentralized communal self-governance.

I’m surprised on of shifty’s “I’ve been a loyal GNN reader for years and never post here but I just had to step in….” defenders hasn’t arrived to try to do image control for shifty….

The aside aside, I’ve got to wonder what people think is going to happen to nuclear facilities, chemical factories and the massive infrastructure that will quickly start to crumble and unleash all kinds of toxins into the environment once they’re abandoned, and why they assume that the world will be some bucolic Eden where they can be peaceful hunter/gatherers (or warring hunter/gathers or whatever their personal fantasy is).

“only if people are willing to allow power and authority to be centralized. that’s the whole point of horizontal, decentralized communal self-governance.”

Is that an anarcho-euphemism for masterbation?

So shifty wants “government” but he doesn’t want “civilization”?

“I’ve got to wonder what people think is going to happen to nuclear facilities, chemical factories and the massive infrastructure that will quickly start to crumble and unleash all kinds of toxins into the environment once they’re abandoned,”

I’ve got to wonder what you could possibly imagine the outcome for those toxins aside from shooting them into the friggen sun?

I’ve got to wonder what people think is going to happen to nuclear facilities, chemical factories and the massive infrastructure that will quickly start to crumble and unleash all kinds of toxins into the environment once they’re abandoned

i wonder what people think is going to happen to those things anyways, regardless of the situation.

why they assume that the world will be some bucolic Eden where they can be peaceful hunter/gatherers (or warring hunter/gathers or whatever their personal fantasy is).

maybe because that’s what the world has been for the vast vast majority of its natural history?

Shifty only wants ONE thing.

THEE most guerilla points.