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great stuff liam, fuck tivo!
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agreed, nice sentiment liam
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Obama faced a much tougher opponent in Hillary
McCain is a lying fucker
hustler, warmonger, womanizer, racist, three-faced, keating five, three-faced, vacuous party hack.
his foreign policy experience makes bush look kind through his IRI government toppling group leadership
he wants much bigger wars, with lots more bombs
don’t let his coked up speechwriter fool you
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man, i could not disagree more
i thought he came across as stumbling, uncertain, and hawkish – he only seemed reasonable or sane in comparison to the vitriolic ranting of Guiliani last night
he didn’t have to outright call for occupations or obliterations in this speech – he’s done it in the past
why do people still believe this man is some kind of lone gunman, broken away from the pack and blazing his own trail? he’s blatantly and deliberately contradicted himself over and over again on the campaign trail
why does anyone think that a man who’s sold his soul and gone against his supposed ethics is going to try to change Washington, in the process stabbing everyone who got him there in the back?
and where does this “unseasoned fighter, not a fighter by nature” bit come from, exactly? something tells me a community organizer from the south side of Chicago has as much fight in him as any POW.
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i thought he came across as stumbling, uncertain, and hawkish – he only seemed reasonable or sane in comparison to the vitriolic ranting of Guiliani last night
actually pretty close to my thoughts on McCain as well. I simply enjoyed the way liam expressed himself is all.
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then u enjoy pointy-head sukaz
(hey, no offense liam)
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then u enjoy pointy-head sukaz
you mean the pointy head sukaz views ?.. Not particularly. He does seem earnest about them however. It’s a distinction, one I’m able to make.
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i thought he came across as stumbling, uncertain, and hawkish – he only seemed reasonable or sane in comparison to the vitriolic ranting of Guiliani last night
actually pretty close to my thoughts on McCain as well. I simply enjoyed the way liam expressed himself is all.
-JustLurking
lets see if i can practice this distinction thing? your first comment wuz”
agreed, nice sentiment liam
Just Lurk, ‘kay
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well if I must clarify for ya, I was actually agreeing with Silvers comment directly above my own, in that I enjoyed the manner in which liam expressed himself. like I said the distinction to me is not an entirely difficult or a complex one. Of course omitting the additional comment I made which might have put things in perspective for ya was cute, which I’m not convinced was entirely in error, but cute, in an cranky adolescent kinda way.
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On abortion: “A culture of life,” but not “pro-life” or “anti-abortion.”
??
Reality check Liam, with Sarah Palin on the ticket there are no questions about where their administration would stand on choice issues in doing key things, like nominating judges, regardless of such semantics. PRO LIFE and ANTI CHOICE>do not be fooled!
Of course though GNN is largely a guys club anyhow, so how might we really know what more than 50 percent of the voting public might have to say…but that is an aside…
I found his speech to be demagogic and violent. He told me I had to be working hard for this country instead of complaining about it, that I should even join the Armed Forces!, he told me that even though I spend most of my time literally cleaning up the mess that pricks like him are making of our landscapes and communities.
Oh that word again, community. You say he recognized individuals that work in communities? I call BS on that…If there is one thing I would say after the last couple of nights is that McCain Palin is the anti-community ticket.
I feel like he insulted me personally, and was condescending to those of us who have international family lives. The jingoism was grotesque and fascist.
Fight fight fight…
Patriotic and jingoistic crap, and the line about the Latina fue una cosa que dice el patrón a la muchacha que trabaja en su cocina.
Mal Bicho.
Liam, I will still give you credit for a well formatted and grammatically correct post. And you have every right to support McCain and Palin over Obama and Biden, which it seems possible that you do.
Personally, I found the whole affair to be disgusting. Thick with lies. Thick with thieves. Nothing of an interesting man there. Just a carpet bomber, who saw the light and now has a bible thumper watching his back.
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Lurki- i posed both your comments, but i am shitte at distinctions
call me mrs grey
and hey, Palin is pro-choice… she said her baby girl slut had chosen to keep the baby… i mean, she will say if pressed that she meant, ‘as opposed to giving it up for adoption’... but at a ‘supposed’ five months and in a national spotlight that is very ambiguous language… so i figure she is a fake conservative power-psycho pro-choice liar who eats her aborted fetuses to enhance her power
howz dat fer a distinction?
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Lurki- i posed both your comments
yes cupcake, I’m quite aware you posted 2 of them and conveniently omitted a 3rd in answer to your supposed confusion.
so i figure she is a fake conservative power-psycho pro-choice liar who eats her aborted fetuses to enhance her power
well that’s awesome. the fact you find her methods of enhancement and supposed power so impressive doesn’t alter my opinion she’s more or less a theatrical prop of little substance strategically decorated by the management team with empty sloganeering and symbolic gestures quite analogous to your average cereal box or laundry detergent. The number of labels one manages to plaster onto the box suggesting it’s new and improved does little to change the fact it’s still the same crap inside. but hey if eating power enhancing fetuses is more your thing, you might wanna add a few seal penises or deer testicles into the soup while you’re at it.
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“He even threw cold water in the audience’s face at one point, declaring the “Latina daughter of migrant workers,” to be a “US Citizen.””
“Uh-huh. Pulling that in St. Paul, in Rush Limbaugh’s den? That is a maverick.”
It is? Is St Paul all of the sudden Texas? Rush Limbaugh’s den? It’s actually not maverick at all. It’s legally a fact.
“He comes across as a truly independent-minded man”
Jesus, are you sure you aren’t an idiot?
“On the war: “I hate war. It is the most terrible thing.””
Wow, simple as that. Good man. Where’s my hand? Where’s his penis? Let me at him.
““Education is the civil rights issue of our day,””
“He mentioned charter schools”
Lovely. Education may be a civil rights issue…what he doesn’t mention is that he’s on the wrong side of it.
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“great stuff liam”
Seriously? It may be excellent coverage for free republic, but it just looks out of place on gnn. Not something I’d expect any self respecting gorilla to come up with, that’s for sure.
“McCain offers his service – and seems 1,000 times less insane than our current president.”
So did our current president during his first run.
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“seems 1,000 times less insane than our current president”
What is it with this shit? Why is that what we’re settling for? I saw the Obama speech the other night with thousands of people waving signs that said “CHANGE!”. Why is that all we care about? The kind of change we need won’t come from a simple flip of the mattress. We need a whole new bed. Or perhaps a hammock.
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It may be excellent coverage for free republic, but it just looks out of place on gnn. Not something I’d expect any self respecting gorilla to come up with, that’s for sure.
interesting how acknowledging “alternative” and/or outright contrary views (while not necessarily agreeing with them) is by default self disrespecting… I always thought Gnn was a much more open platform or “forum” than that. beats alex jones infinitum forever into the night add nauseum
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Or to take the analogy further some would say we need to sleep on the ground. Personally, I want a roof over my head.
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Even a roof full of old white dudes?
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“interesting how acknowledging “alternative” and/or outright contrary views…”
He’s not acknowledging them, he’s swallowing the rhetoric over the actual behavior. It’s equivalent to what the mainstream media does now and did before the 2000 election with Bush. This simply reminds me of a daily show segment where they showed clips of what Bush said before 2000, and what he said after he was elected, and they were completely opposite. Now, if people actually looked at his record as business man and governor it wouldn’t have been that hard to predict what kind of president he would be. McCain has another thing going for us, and that’s his voting record. Does he really look 1000 times less insane than anything? Does he really hate war? Does he really care about the ability for the poor to get a decent education? Is he really not pro life? Does he care about workers? Does he really care about the environment? Well, look what he said! Look what he fucking said! It’s an odd sort of bait and switch. I mean, the guy put words into a string of intelligible statements. Just like read them, and he totally seems cool. Oh yea!
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Even a roof full of old white dudes?
what about a roof made of old white dudes?
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He’s not acknowledging them, he’s swallowing the rhetoric over the actual behavior.
you mean Silver ?... eh, I’m not so sure.
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Toad – That’s just…wrong. Mainly on an aesthetic level because of the repulsive images of all the dangling and wobbly bits on old white guys…talk about being oppressed from above! I’m thinking soylent green alternative energy is a better use….
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No, Liam…I thought we were talking about Liam this time…fucking internets.
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I just assumed Stephen was confused.
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yea, gotcha. kinda figured that was the clusterfuck
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Stephen seems to appreciate original, interesting content on his website…I don’t generally take his approval of something as him necessarily agreeing about any of it…
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“what about a roof made of old white dudes?”
mmmmm deep…
“all the dangling and wobbly bits on old white guys…talk about being oppressed from above! I’m thinking soylent green alternative energy is a better use….”
Now that’s what I call a green roof!
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That’s just…wrong. Mainly on an aesthetic level because of the repulsive images of all the dangling and wobbly bits on old white guys
i like to think of it as “fashion forward”
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The kind of change we need won’t come from a simple flip of the mattress. We need a whole new bed. Or perhaps a hammock.
I vote Mexican hammocks for two
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It’s mental pretending that stinking old bastard wrote that speech or sincerely believes a single word of it.
He has teams of jews writing shite gleaned from focus groups and even checking the use of individual words against response graphs. Nothing is “real” in the USA – It’s a Nazi dictatorship run by jews.
Democracy can’t work in the USA. -The hooting pigs that comprise the US population are incapable of understanding the any policy more complicated than, “let’s bomb them rag-heads”.
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“It’s a Nazi dictatorship run by jews. “
do go on…
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heh you a new nazi or an old nazi in a new sock?
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at least say, ‘run by fake jews’
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but back to the point:
Liam, stop sniffing glue before watching political speeches… sniff after… after, okay?
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Liam, there is a reason walmart executives are telling their managers to vote for McCain. There is a reason the coal industry is supporting McCain. There is a reason every labor union in the country is supporting Obama. There is a reason every environmental group in the country is supporting Obama. There is a reason every feminist group is supporting Obama.
I can’t believe someone with 144 GNN points would swallow rhetoric that Karl Rove probably wrote. Ewwwwwwww.
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McCain IRI death squad master
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He’s an interesting man with an interest in an interesting nuclear exchange with another interesting nuclear power.
What the fuck is this shit?
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What the fuck is this shit?
I think you answered your own question.
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Well,
I’m not really a gorilla, or a guerrilla, I suppose. I’d agree with the philosopher who said, after watching Robespierre, that revolution is a mother who devours her young.
I’m sorry you don’t like my summary – or don’t like John McCain. You’re free to like or dislike anything and everything, as you well know!
Although, the going sentiment at this station seems to be an unbridled and rarely thoughtful hatefulness. A pure and unclarified hatefulness. Or, if that’s too strong a word, then just an anhedonia, or a case of the crawling misanthropies….
I’d ask you what your plans are for the election – but I don’t think anything would suit any of you, except for a violent overthrow of something – anything.
So – moving to Mars is out, and most people who blog frequently and regularly really are only comfortable on their fat arses, with devil dogs in hand – so I don’t think crash-course wilderness survival, to return to a Rousseuian/Thoreauian idea would really work out.
(I walk a lot, and eat no devil dogs, but am a fan of technology, on many levels).
What can be said of the disenchantment that so many of you seem to level, without compromise, at the world as it is? Will anyone dare to actually answer that? Name your hates – but then, see if the thing you hate is new, or if it seems to be endemic to the species. Try to find out, it’s an interesting exercise.
I suppose I was much angrier about the world eight or ten years ago… but you get surprised, and jumped on, and annihilated enough in your own personal philosophies – and after awhile, I think we just say, “well, I’m going to try to see this thing for how it actually works. I have my ideas, my philosophy, but what does history say? What expectations am I holding that seem to get dashed by reality, and how did I come by those thoughts, those idealizations?”
Some of you seem to think that I’ve let you down, or that I owe you parity in opinion. You must know that’s not true. You’re not looking to me for moral support. If most of you were to be honest, you’d admit that you just go online to grouse, isn’t it so? Vent your spleen, in no and every particular direction, without much reflection.
No? Well, I haven’t seen much of anything constructive in response. McCain has big oil ties, you say. Yes, I can only assume that anyone who rises to the level of presidential candidate is well-associated with the people who run the economies of the world. I suppose it’s exciting to find these things out, and you feel like you’re really getting new information when you point out people’s affiliations. It doesn’t do a lot for me, at this point, because I just assume it’s so, I suppose.
I accept, with many of you, that there are conflicts in the world that seem totally manufactured – that seem to be ‘fixable’ by the quickest turn of the smallest screw – “if people would only…”
“If they would only.. eat less meat! Take public transportation! Be vegetarian! Compost! Think critically! Read the classics! Read author X, Y or Z! Put down the devil dogs! Get out of the house! Make love not war!”
And all the rest of the Rousseauian idealizations that we seem to be living out, and which we are out-living.
But is any of it true? Or, can we make it happen by yelling about it? Or, is there a “we?”
There once was a “we” who deposed their king, (a beloved king, who did try to give more to his people than many of his ministers would’ve liked), and invited nation-wide retribution and redistribution of monies, effects and affairs.
Very quickly, an independent thinker, an educated man, rose to power, and introduced the wealthy to a very cruel woman, Madame la Guillotine. Soon, even revolutionaries were meeting her.
Soon, the new leader himself met her.
Soon, the country was run by another empire-builder, who towered over Europe, at all of 5 foot 4 or 5, and soon was made Emperor.
And the people loved him for it!
But he couldn’t stop going to war.. and none of his European pals liked him after awhile. And so they set him to rot on an island, where he did, and wrote, and passed into infirmity and eternity.
And then the country got another…. King.
Revolution isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, in the end. And so, you look for stability where it can be found; for opportunity offered to as many people as can be done; for liberty – freedom to rise in achievement through effort, freedom to speak and try and succeed and fail and try again, where greater liberty can be offered to as many people as is possible.
And where cable-tv addicted sloth is available for those who want it? Well, the Romans had their bread and circuses. Thousands of animals, jungle animals, lions and elephants, and an equal number and variety of human – all killed, murdering and goring each other, for the distraction of the citizens of the world’s greatest empire – up to that point.
Human beings are a funny species…
“What the f- is this s-?” somebody with a make-believe web-name offered. It’s not really a question, it’s small rhetoric.
It is to say, “you offered a fair view of a man who we must, by our very position, decide to hate, personally, politically, professionally.”
I decided not to. I listened to his talk, understood his personal journey as well as I could, and understood that the world is always half-insane, and keeps itself together with ideas that are probably hard to fathom to their depths.
I didn’t hate the man, or feel that he was lying. I didn’t do the same write-up for Obama, Biden or Palin, because their positions are not new to me personally, and I can hear the laugh lines, and I can see the audiences clapping like trained seals.
They clapped like trained seals for McCain too, but he gave them subtle and not-so-subtle hints that he really didn’t give much of a damn whether they supported him, or not, where his actual ideas were concerned.
How much anyone can hold onto their actual ideas once they are in that maelstrom of the Imperial office, well, who knows. Who knows?
Nobody writing at this site, or on this thread does. We can only speculate.
He’s an interesting man, McCain, and whether you who assert your “guerrilla” status – your “fighter in a little war” status (that’s the meaning of the word) – whether you approve or disapprove, somebody is going to get elected in 60 days, to this mad, mad office.
And I’m trying to see who’s not going to get pummeled the most, and who has even a slight chance of getting a few ideas through; and who might survive the neo-Cons, and the Clintonistas. Mr. Obama has no chance, in my opinion, of surviving either group, if he were ensconsed in that office.
He’s a good biography writer, and he may even grow up to do something useful. We’ll see. We’ll see how the whole thing goes.
For those of you who want to impugn everything that exists in the world, it’s a big world, and I’m telling you as somebody who’s crested 37, and some of those very challenging years, that the world starts to look different after awhile.
It just seems a little more magical, a little more hopelessly melancholic, a little more surreal, and a general move toward a general stability seems to be a lot more important than some notion of any kind of total or partial “revolution.”
Of course, nobody here had any suggestions, anything interesting or useful. I mean, people cry about the probability of nuclear energy.
But you’ll use it, when it’s powering your website. You may not want it, and I may not think it’s a grand idea – but that’s the human species.
You do your best on the issues you really, really care about. I’ve fought a million battles on behalf of a few people who didn’t want to be carved by a thousand long knives, belonging to a few pharmaceutical companies, and their legion supporters – some of which are some of you, I’m sure.
Life’s funny.
Go, Johnny Go. Give ‘em a good fight.
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tl;dr we ignore the deeds of evil men because the system will not change for the better. Also, one untested-with-executive-power senator is inherently more likely to succeed than another untested-with-executive-power senator because he spent five years as a prisoner of war.
Being a P.O.W. builds character. I’ll have to remember that.
Post Modified: 09/09/08 23:01:12
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Liam, that’s the most awful, condescending pile of bullshit i’ve read in a long, long time
if you didn’t find any constructive responses to your paean in this thread, that’s pretty much your fault – there are several well articulated, well presented cases laid out here
your response to all of those well articulated, well presented cases is basically “pssh, you all think you’re so SMART, why don’t you just move back to the WOODS, little revolutionaries” followed by a fucking history lecture
i honestly didn’t expect this kind of smug nonsense from you – you’re the one always lamenting the lack of elevated discourse ‘round these parts, yet when it’s offered to you, you lean on ridiculous talking points instead of participating
really disappointing
oh, and since you trotted out that ridiculous fucking “made-up internet name” thing again, as if it means anything in a deliberately anonymous setting, my name’s Nick Malone. now that you know that, could you try actually reading and responding to what i wrote?
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I decided not to. I listened to his talk, understood his personal journey as well as I could, and understood that the world is always half-insane, and keeps itself together with ideas that are probably hard to fathom to their depths.
What in the hell are you on about?
he gave them subtle and not-so-subtle hints that he really didn’t give much of a damn whether they supported him
because another stubborn leader is what we need?
Revolution isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, in the end.
Do you even read yourself before you press submit?
Of course, nobody here had any suggestions, anything interesting or useful.
Firstly, you didn’t ask anything. Second, were you really expecting to write a piece about how interesting McCain is on gnn and expect everyone to sit around and pontificate on his message? You should know better by now.
some of which are some of you, I’m sure.
Paranoid much?
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Wow, Liam, you are out on a limb. Kudos for trying here at GNN with this kind of posting, but you have to have better constructed arguments to be convincing.
I’m trying to see who’s not going to get pummeled the most, and who has even a slight chance of getting a few ideas through; and who might survive the neo-Cons, and the Clintonistas. Mr. Obama has no chance, in my opinion, of surviving either group, if he were ensconsed in that office.
That is your reasoning for supporting McCain-Palin?
McCain IS totally in the Neo-Con camp (don’t deceive yourself) and he is totally sold out to the radical evangelicals now with Palin on the ticket. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Have you ever been to McCain’s home town of Scottsdale? Seen how he and his like lives? This guy is so malleable it is hard to keep track of who John McCain is, we all know how hard he works at reinventing himself. He is also completely out of touch with regular people.
A chance of getting a “few ideas through”? What? That is total nonsense. Which idea, the one about winning the war in Iraq?
You have every right to support McCain on these pages.
He is however nothing of the man you say he is. It seems you have swallowed the maverick bait hook line and sinker. I find your analysis of McCain to be naive and ignorant of his record.
And his judgment?
Imagine Sarah Palin as president. That is a real possibility if McCain were to ascend to the White House with her as as VP.
You support the McCain Palin ticket?
It is your right, but I find your reasoning to be faulty and poorly investigated.
And as much as you may be correct in recognizing the ranting nature of GNN, Number5Toad was totally correct that in this case you failed to respond to the discussion that was presented to you.
Time for you to get out of your apartment Liam. The city is affecting your ability to think clearly.
Maybe some time in the woods would do you well.
It could provide you with a chance to get your thoughts together.
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BTW Liam, you even mention it in your post—
He vowed to stop “paying 700 million dollars” or something similar, to “countries that don’t like us very much,” (China, is the correct answer), and indicated that under his administration, work would be returning to the United States (and its allies).
Try this article on for size…
What $700 Billion?
McCain’s speech was pure Orwellian newspeak and two minute hate. I am so glad you are fascinated by this interesting man!
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McCain is a fraud, imho. He doesn’t know the Middle East or the economy.
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Hypocrisy express… hey, I fell for a speech once or twice… I think it was Nader and bak a way some Jerry Brown speeches… but to fall for IRI fascist death worshipper McCain… well, taste the pity…
We, the unwashed, in fact, have reasons. Thou, Liam, have nothing but a gut sucker punch response to McCain’s worn schtick…
You are tired of Obama, but never knew about McCain… the ass monkey ran in 2000 and was destroyed by BushCo. Guess you were not watching the show…
Anyway, as I harvest my corn and apples, jar and freeze and ready my gun scope for a few deer I have picked out… I will remember your defensive pseudo-intellectualism and recall why it has always been easier to talk to a conservative than a liberal. (That is the Ron Paul camp- not the neo-con pedophile McCain/Bush?Reagan/Cheney etc camp)
And hey, I think we all know some devil is behind Obama too… but at least I could eat dinner with the guy without having to shiv him.
Repent Liam, just say, man, I was sooooo high! And we will shower you with flowers of love.
Or do not, as you enlighten us, “You’re free to like or dislike anything and everything, as you well know!”
And I have a very nuanced understanding of political possibilities within the historical context. In 1991 I thought it was imperative to build up India into a viable third force. I did the best I could…
In 2000 I though I would campaign for Nader so Bush would win and radicalize the world… My district cast 79,0000 votes for Ralph.
Yeah, I still feel doubt about that…
But, got to take it both ways.
I think you have done great and brave work Liam, this just was not your finest effort.
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Liam, in your comment you say “a general move toward a general stability seems to be a lot more important than some notion of any kind of total or partial ‘revolution.’”
My guess is you wrote that with a full stomach in a comfortable chair and without the slightest worry about what tomorrow will bring. You probably don’t live next to a mountain top removal site; you probably don’t have to worry about U.S. war jets dropping bombs on your neighborhood; you probably don’t have to wake up in the morning and work 14 hours stitching Nikes so you can have a roof over your head. I could probably go on.
SO YEAH, STABILITY WOULD BE FUCKING AWESOME. BUT IT IS HARD TO HAVE STABILITY WHEN THE WORLD’S ELITE ARE CAUSING SO MUCH HUMAN MISERY AND ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN OR EXPAND THEIR POWER.
I would love a stable society. My personal life is very stable, but as an empathizing human being I cannot ignore the suffering, especially since much of it orginates in my home country. I admit, I am too scared (and to be honest with myself, too content) to be an active revolutionary. But i’ll be damned if I denigrate those who are. You condescending prick.
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“There once was a “we” who deposed their king, (a beloved king, who did try to give more to his people than many of his ministers would’ve liked)”
Are you seriously refferring to Louis the XVI? I know you’re open minded but that’s like saying Bush and Stalin cared about their people.
He opposed basic reforms that “we” asked for. And your telling me he was a good leader? God, what a fucked up statement.
Napoleon was seen as spreading the revolution, and it’s ideals (that we still have today.) Until he crowned himself emperor. And why did “we” end up under a king again? Because the other “we’s” of the world didn’t unite to topple their “benevolent kings.”
You cant blame all the atrocities and death on the revolutionaries, respectively. The “right” and the conditions they imposed on their subjects is what forced these people into armed rebellion. Not their evil internal ways, but their quality of life.
Maybe because you live a nice “high” quality of life, you feel that nothing is wrong with the world; cant understand the perspective of a poor farmer in Guatemala, or a iron miner in South Africa, or a sweatshop worker in China, but god, don’t degrade and belittle those brave enough to take up arms; despite the uncertainty of “stability.”
But as far McCain, you are completely wrong. I’d call you stupid, but wont. (Kinda just did, dontcha think?)
Really, the maverick, defender of the privileged, what’s wrong with that?
I’d rather have chaos and anarchy than live my whole life under right-wing military rule.
You think revolution eats her young? Well your so-called stablity has forced others in other countries to squash their own hopes, their dreams, and to rebel against the status quo.
You truly are a degenerate, voting for McCain.
If America votes McCain in, than this country deserves to be fucked over, militarized, and fucked over. Lolz.
Post Modified: 09/11/08 13:13:17
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comments here have been venal, personally affrontive, inconsiderate, imbalanced, off-topic, off-point, non-conversational, and totally out of the spirit of open discussion. Those of you who stooped to insult me personally, repeatedly, and cursed and made personal assumptions – please remove your posts.
Your assumptions were miles off base, your insults only betray your volatility and small-mindedness in discussing a candidate you clearly hate, and can tolerate not a moderate word about.
Please make this a rule for conversing with me – if you have nothing constructive to say, that invites further conversation, that seeks to lay open differences in a friendly, considerate, adult manner, then please do not post here at my blog.
Thank you.
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wow.
ok Liam. if responding to your points with points of my own counts as “venal, personally affrontive, inconsiderate, imbalanced” etc then i guess you’re not really after a dialogue at all.
suddenly pretty clear why you’re so into McCain.
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Good, glad you have it figured out. Feel free not to post here. I really haven’t enjoyed your contributions here. You have some fixation or hang-up, where you imagine that I owe you something in terms of worldview – further, you make endless assumptions about my worldview, which are totally incorrect.
You then denigrate anything I try to share, call it names, call me names, and generally bemoan the situation.
So, you’re not happy here. Please stay away, if you can’t be conversational.
I don’t know what’s so difficult about this or so confusing.
Imagine that you’d met somebody – a stranger – at a coffeeshop, and you started to get into a conversation about politics.
And you found you had different points of view.
Would you say to them, looking at them, this stranger, who you do not know, in the eye, “fucking history lectures, I’m disappointed in you, no more smug nonsense from you, condescending pile of bullshit,” etc?
Would you? Because if you would, then you’re probably insane. You’re a borderline personality.
But you probably wouldn’t. You’d probably listen, and say – “wow, that’s different than how I see it. Do you mind hearing a different point of view?”
So, I haven’t seen much of anything here, except that somehow, some of you seem to know everything, that I am ‘voting for McCain,” that I’m “into McCain,” that I’m a “degenerate, voting for McCain.” That I’m “stupid.” and on and on.
So, what were the questions? You don’t like him, you didn’t like his speech. You, many of you have many axes to grind.
I don’t. I’m not voting for anybody, as of yet. Tell you the truth, this time, I’m not sure I’m voting. Personal reasons.
But that’s really none of your business.
Now, I liked some of what he said in his speech – I liked it for a variety of reasons – especially his dislike of the neo-Cons, and vice-versa.
Now, if you can’t handle that, that some people will like some people who you don’t like, then I can offer you nothing to help you.
I can’t answer your questions, Nick. You don’t have any questions – you just have an axe.
You’re not really interested in knowing what it is that maybe makes us different, in this or any other regard. You just want to put bile on someone, for some reason.
I wrote a really nice, very personal, very self-owned, to put it that way, bit of my worldview – I shared that. It goes to my philosophy.
Did you say, “that’s interesting – it’s not the way I see it. I hate war, I’m opposed to anyone who isn’t violently opposed to war.”
Or, “I believe in revolution, and yes, Robespierre was a monster, but…” etc.
Nope. Not a lick of it, not a scent.
Even the usually human “many hues” showed only one hue here.
So, you know. Get over it. There are things I like about the guy. I’ll discover more about him as I go.
You hate him, beyond an ability to even consider what somebody else might like about him.
I’m not you, and I’m always looking for new information. What’s been left here at this blog however, is used toilet paper. I can’t find an idea, except in the briefest, angriest, most unsolicitous language – “he’s a fraud, he’s monster, he’s white man!”
What can anyone do with this?
You know, for your sake, I hope whoever you want to have elected gets elected. I’m not as attached to the outcome as you apparently are.
But if you cannot have a civilized conversation, without calling me names, just don’t bother to start.
You’re in the coffeeshop, so am I. We do not know each other.
Proceed from there.
Post Modified: 09/12/08 13:05:20
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“Napoleon was seen as spreading the revolution, and it’s ideals (that we still have today.) Until he crowned himself emperor. And why did “we” end up under a king again? Because the other “we’s” of the world didn’t unite to topple their “benevolent kings.”
But, of course they did. Kings were toppled, not by revolution in the streets, but in the Mills, the devil mills of the industrial revolution. Adam Smith, and all that.
Who was it who called them, those demonic..no. satanic mills? And it is on the backs and through the gears of those mills that humanity grew and grew and grew.
And food production grew and grew. And the machine state, too. And then, the killing apparatus of mass-killing.
And the feeding apparatus of mass-feeding.
It’s a very Manichean world, isn’t it?
You also compare, in some fashion, Louis the XVI to Stalin, to Bush. I can’t take that seriously, and if you know Stalin, then you’ll know why. But then again, you end by calling me stupid, twice, clever as you were being.
So… what is it that you wanted?
McCain is Stalin? Bush is Hitler?
Do you see how it cheapens the reality of these monsters of history to be facile in their comparisons?
Louis XVI was an inheritor of a throne, when thrones were going out of style. He was a king with the poor fortune and mal chance to be born in the era of Voltaire and Rousseau.
Here’s a decent bit of summary:
When Louis had first ascended the throne, his chief financial officer was a man named Anne Robert Jacques Turgot (1727-1781), who was a brilliant and creative administrator. Turgot instantly set about trying to reform the country’s financial situation by instituting a series of reforms that included replacing the corvée with a tax on landowners, an easing of guild laws to allow industrial manufacturing to increase, and, radically, a sharp cut in monarchical expenses.
“Had these reforms gone through, the Revolution probably would never have happened. These reforms, however, were the cause of the agitation by the Parlements in reasserting their veto rights—these Parlements were, of course, made up largely of nobility who would have to pay the new tax.”
“When the reforms failed, Louis dismissed Turgot. From that point onwards, the country would fall into ruinous financial crisis. At the heart of the crisis was the financial and administrative mismanagement of taxes.”
“Both the Seven Years War and the French support of the American Revolution had put France deeply in debt; over one half of the country’s budget was dedicated to paying off that debt. While this sounds extreme, it was fairly typical of European countries at the time.”
So, God bless the French, you know. Showed up just in time to save some American colonial behinds. And it cost them. Jefferson was wild-eyed in support for the Fr. Revolution, but Hamilton thought he was out of his mind – and he was.
It was a horror that destabilized Europe for decades, and brought its object back with force – a king, an emporer, and then, an increasingly strong non-monarchical parlement (talking place – isn’t that nice? Parler – talk. Talking place.)
But then the 1800s turned into the 1900s, and that’s where we are. We’re gathering the seeds that grew in the ruin of the 2 world wars, and we live in the machine world it sprouted.
So… Louis Ex Vee I. He was not despised across his nation, but was killed in the purge, the purge, the purge.
The purge enacted by? Mad, mad, mad men. Revolutionaries inflamed by atheistic utopic philosophy. That, they had in common with the Bolsheviks – that they had in common with Stalin.
Ever read Marx’s essay on Das Judentem? It’s good to know that many heroes of socialist revolution were no kind and benevolant men – they believed in the subsuming of all groups into one group identity.
There’s a story that a group of peasants (french), who’d lost everything in the violence surrounding the revolution, met Voltaire, and cursed him: “What have you left us? We used to have the solace of heaven, now we have nothing!”
There’s no easy answer, I think, to the problems posed by the human species.
Anyway, poor Louis. Born a king when kings weren’t wanted. But what would we do without Beowulf? Without Arthur? Without Solon, Augustus, Hammurabi?
Good king Alfred, who fought the Vikings. Good prince Hal, who starred in THREE Shakespeare plays?
Without King George or James? Without Charles Martel, or Charlemagne? Without Shaka? Without Haile Selassie? Without Churchill? Who could’ve fought Hitler better than Churchill. And then, it’s terrible to know, but Stalin, and Stalin’s russia, did the most damage against Hitler’s germany. Isn’t that terrible? I hate Stalin, and yet it’s so.
Thank goodness for the Russians, the martyred Russians (I’m one of them, Lithua, was the family’s origin…) There are driving forces in history, sometimes embodied in a man, or family.
What are you gonna do about that? Cry? Moan?
But then, we get our Lenins, and worse, our Stalins and Maos. And then, our Pol Pots.
Bush is a failure of a president. The Iraq war is a mark against the better notions of western civilization, derived after the world wars. But he’s not Stalin. You’ll know when he’s Stalin, because you, you dissenters from the mean – you will, we will be dead.
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I actually kinda like McCain as a person, from what I’ve seen over the years. I like that I know when he’s uncomfortable saying something. Hell, I like that he’s capable of being uncomfortable saying some stuff that his party believes.
I also kinda like that he had to staple a right-wing nutjob to his VP slot to sway his own party. Speaks volumes as to how much the faithful don’t trust him. No way the Repubs were stupid enough to think they were swaying Hilary voters with the VP pick. They are good at one thing: getting elected, with a side order of hurting poor people…
I also recall that the douchebags currently in power fucked him over when he was running against Bush, and have made him eat shit ever since. I gotta hope he holds a grudge. A big fat grudge.
And that Ann Coulter went on the record saying she’d vote Hillary before she’d vote McCain. Doesn’t hurt.
But I still hope he loses to the black guy…
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jesus christ.
Would you say to them, looking at them, this stranger, who you do not know, in the eye, “fucking history lectures, I’m disappointed in you, no more smug nonsense from you, condescending pile of bullshit,” etc?
if they told me why they liked a candidate, and i responded (as i in fact responded in my first damn post) with why i didn’t like him, and asked a few questions about this person’s opinion of this candidate…
and this person responded by being a condescending prick, giving me a history lecture, and telling me that little revolutionaries like me couldn’t survive out in the woods, without responding to either the content or the tone of the questions i’d asked?
if this person dismissed my attempt at a constructive, honest dialogue by calling me a hateful individual with a closed mind?
then yes, yes i would tell them not to fucking lecture me, and not to be a condescending prick. and frankly, i’d feel pretty justified in that statement.
You’re not really interested in knowing what it is that maybe makes us different, in this or any other regard. You just want to put bile on someone, for some reason…You hate him, beyond an ability to even consider what somebody else might like about him.
ah. so i’m not supposed to make sweeping assumptions about your position (which i didn’t) but it’s fine for you to do the same?
I can’t answer your questions, Nick. You don’t have any questions – you just have an axe.
one more time, Liam…go back and read my very first response to your blog. it’s only a few posts into the thread. if you still fail to find questions, constructive responses, or an attempt at a discussion in that post, we can just end this charade.
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Here is your original post, and the best of responses I could possible give you:
>man, i could not disagree more
Okay!
>i thought he came across as stumbling, uncertain, and hawkish – he only seemed reasonable or sane in comparison to the vitriolic ranting of Guiliani last night
Okay! Good, glad to hear your opinion.
>he didn’t have to outright call for occupations or obliterations in this speech – he’s done it in the past
Okay! Good to know. I suppose. Who knows what you’re referring to. You don’t tell us.
Here’s the first question, Nick:
>why do people still believe this man is some kind of lone gunman, broken away from the pack and blazing his own trail? he’s blatantly and deliberately contradicted himself over and over again on the campaign trail
I don’t know, Nick. I don’t. Maybe there are good reasons, maybe there aren’t.
>why does anyone think that a man who’s sold his soul and gone against his supposed ethics is going to try to change Washington, in the process stabbing everyone who got him there in the back?
I think that’s what some people call a “loaded question” Nick. I can’t answer it without clarifying every assertion inherent in it. And that’s not my job. If you want to prove your points ,put it on your blog. I might read it, if you do.
>and where does this “unseasoned fighter, not a fighter by nature” bit come from, exactly? something tells me a community organizer from the south side of Chicago has as much fight in him as any POW.
Good, Nick. Glad “something tells you.” Watching Obama has shown me that he stumbles widly when not on teleprompter.
Post Modified: 09/12/08 14:19:39
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I take all of this to mean that the Democrats are, once again, in a massive melt-down, that they cannot believe that they couldn’t put together a better ticket after 8 years of Bush, then Obama-Biden.
I think that Dems are equally disturbed by the often hollow-sounding Obama’s pretty speech.
I don’t blame them for melting down – and I don’t have a prescription for it.
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I actually kinda like McCain as a person, from what I’ve seen over the years. I like that I know when he’s uncomfortable saying something. Hell, I like that he’s capable of being uncomfortable saying some stuff that his party believes.
I also kinda like that he had to staple a right-wing nutjob to his VP slot to sway his own party. Speaks volumes as to how much the faithful don’t trust him. No way the Repubs were stupid enough to think they were swaying Hilary voters with the VP pick. They are good at one thing: getting elected, with a side order of hurting poor people…
I also recall that the douchebags currently in power fucked him over when he was running against Bush, and have made him eat shit ever since. I gotta hope he holds a grudge. A big fat grudge.
And that Ann Coulter went on the record saying she’d vote Hillary before she’d vote McCain. Doesn’t hurt.
But I still hope he loses to the black guy…
Now, that’s a response.
Look at that – opinions owned, thoughts are clear, non-denominational. Excellent. Love it.
Yes, that’s it, that’s so much of what’s interesting about him. That Coulter did say “Hillary before McCain.”
Very good, very funny.
As to what I hope? I hope.. I hope.. I dunno. I hope cooler heads always prevail… I hope that the US has vented its spleen, and needs no more ‘pre-emptive’ war, to satisfy itself.
I hope.. I hope food prices don’t continue to rise, and I hope that economies begin to come to scale, localize slightly, and that cows and humans become better friends.
What?
I mean, I would enjoy it if our food consumption was less radically consumptive – I think it would be good for our nation’s health, for starters.
But.. you know. Hope is not something I put too much faith in!
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Who knows what you’re referring to. You don’t tell us.
do i really have to? are you so unfamiliar with his voting record, his history, or his public statements that i have to remind you of them? did you not hear his famous “make it 100 years” statement? have you not read his plans for Iran? are you unfamiliar with his positions on nuclear proliferation?
I can’t answer it without clarifying every assertion inherent in it
but your assertion was that he “his chances of breaking up the viscous plaques of intrigue and overspending, at least in his target areas, is superior to Obamas” – an assertion made with no real clarification. what intrigue and overspending are you talking about? are they linked to any of his policies, or to his platform? what makes you believe his chances of changing any of those things are better than Obama’s?
i can clarify my statement here without blogging it. simply put, McCain is running on his reputation as a “Maverick” despite the fact that his voting record overwhelmingly supports Bush, and claiming that he’ll “change Washington” despite hiring seven of the top corporate lobbyists to run his campaign. where’s the Maverick? where’s the change? in what way am i supposed to believe he’ll be anything other than Politics As Usual when his entire campaign has been Politics As Usual?
Good, Nick. Glad “something tells you”...
mmmm, nice spin. that “something” is my experience as a community organizer in tough communities, and an intimate familiarity with how hard such an organizer has to fight with local governments, police departments, and other bureaucracies to get anything accomplished. that “something” also includes my love for Chicago and familiarity with its local politics.
but hell, if that’s not enough for you, consider that he beat the pants off the Clintons in one of the longest, most bitter, closest fights in the democratic party’s history, and still got them to speak glowingly on his behalf at the convention. if that’s not the mark of a fighter, i don’t really know what is.
Watching Obama has shown me that he stumbles widly when not on teleprompter.
really? could you back that assertion up with some facts? a video? something other than your opinion?
Post Modified: 09/12/08 18:03:31
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I actually kinda like McCain as a person, from what I’ve seen over the years
i feel that his refusal to call his treatment by his captors “torture” in his address to the nation says more about him as a person than anything else he’s ever done, honestly
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Don’t worry, I’m looking at all the info, I always read for information.
You win any debate on McCain, because you’re quite impassioned and inflamed about it, and because I have no entrenched position. I have some opinions, ideas, etc. I’ve seen that you have the same, which you clearly want me to believe equally. And you have some potentially interesting research, and then some that doesn’t impress me as it must impress you.
But then we’re back to your heated passion for the conversation, and your desire to win, be right, and, I’m not sure what. Have me agree with you in total, I suppose.
As a reader of the Tao, I’m surprised that you take the tactic of force and belittlement so easily and so often. You must know that it generates the opposite effect of what you’d wish.
I’ve asked you to try this without cursing, you’ve refused. I think that says a lot about your intention here. I don’t think this is a debate on particular issues for you – it’s very personal, and I’ve had the misfortune to step into your path, when you were looking for a neck to wring, or someone to harangue about the injustice of it all.
I will read the information you post, but I can tell you, I would read it sooner, and more easily, if it didn’t come with so much pent up anger.
But, I will read any pure information that is posted in time, references always help follow it up.
Good luck with the community that you’re organizing. It’s hard work, painful at times, rewarding often enough.
bests,
LS
Post Modified: 09/13/08 09:55:30
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You win any debate on McCain, because you’re quite impassioned and inflamed about it, and because I have no entrenched position
i like to think the facts have something to do with it, too.
And you have some potentially interesting research, and then some that doesn’t impress me as it must impress you.
could you please be specific as to what impresses you and what doesn’t? whenever you’re done reading, that is.
But then we’re back to your heated passion for the conversation, and your desire to win, be right, and, I’m not sure what. Have me agree with you in total, I suppose.
see, this. this right here. you tell me to ditch the personal attacks, but apparently they’re still fair game for you. knock it off, or stop asking me to, ok?
As a reader of the Tao, I’m surprised that you take the tactic of force and belittlement so easily and so often. You must know that it generates the opposite effect of what you’d wish.
sometimes, it’s exactly what’s necessary.
but i don’t think you’ll find a single person on this site, or in the world – even among those who i disagree with the most vehemently and the most frequently – who would say i use “force and belittlement” easily or often. and again, you opened that door when you repsonded to my rather civil post by calling me a hateful, thoughtful, small-and-close-minded misanthrope without responding to a single word i actually said.
I’ve asked you to try this without cursing, you’ve refused. I think that says a lot about your intention here
inaccurate. you asked me to try this without cursing at you, and as i’ve demonstrated, i’m more than willing to do that when YOU respond to issues and points rather than avoiding them.
if you’re really upset that i used the word “hell” in my last post, well, i don’t know what to tell you. i swear in front of my own son, i’m not going to avoid swearing in front of a grown-ass man.
I don’t think this is a debate on particular issues for you – it’s very personal, and I’ve had the misfortune to step into your path, when you were looking for a neck to wring, or someone to harangue about the injustice of it all.
you couldn’t possibly be more wrong. this is only about the issues for me. you just happen to be the guy who solicited my opinion and then called me a hateful misanthrope, citing things i didn’t even say.
I will read the information you post, but I can tell you, I would read it sooner, and more easily, if it didn’t come with so much pent up anger.
oh, it’s not pent up at all. you made me angry, and i vented.
you set the tone for this debate when you decided to respond to everyone in this thread as if they all talked to you the same way, when they clearly didn’t. deal with it, ok?
Good luck with the community that you’re organizing. It’s hard work, painful at times, rewarding often enough
i don’t organize any more, but thanks. the rewards were never tactile enough to overcome the pain of the work.
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