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5 sure, but anarchist witches and wizards?
oh my
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Whatever happened to no gods no masters! What’s all this flaky new age wizard crap and shit about covens? Is that what the rainbow warrior hippies tell you anarchism is, some kind of alternate hippy religion? Talk about being intellectual and emotional prisoners of exactly the kind of church and state good/evil/karma kind of bullshit which anarchism is intended to be a liberation from.
If you want to be witches and wizards dancing around in covens cool (unless you wizards are doing the pointy white hood thing too) but you’re not fucking anarchists if you believe in all that higher power/master of the unseen universe and karma crap and you’re actually engaged in perverting anarchism to be what it opposes. If “god” (gods, karma or whatever) balanced everything out and made it fair we wouldn’t need anarchism and people wouldn’t need to protect their freedom, we wouldn’t need to see or live in reality to have impact in the real world (because invisible karma/gods can be petitioned and are in control – being gods/masters and all, if ya see what I mean).
The irony of “anarchists” who are religious “witches and wizards” protesting against the Republicans who also eschew “reality-based thinking” is pretty delicious. Of course, the Repubs have always been involved in and interested in all kinds of new age stuff because there’s a lot of crossover between anti-science/medicine Christian fundamentalists and the rest of the Repubs. I guess painting anarchists as “witches and wizards” is a way to – almost literally – demonize anarchists even more (the irony of anarchists being painted as “evil” satanists is almost too much to bear, if it’s actually because self proclaimed “anarchists” are mixing their religion in with their politics thereby spreading misinformation about anarchism then it’s just lame. If it’s not actually from any anarchists but is an attempt to paint anarchists as being new agey religious types or satanists, then it’s actually a pretty good way to create confusion about what anarchism is and to actually lead people who may be inspired to create change to sink into the same unreality-based thinking that the powers that be desire.
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oh i think it’s just creative writing and metaphor, little more.
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shifty that’s a lame cop out, not to mention that it shows a distinct lack of critical abilities on your part and the tendency to just post crap that labels itself as a certain brand without even looking at or considering the content. That would make you a passive propaganda dispensing unit essentially….you know, a tool of propagandists not a voice for freedom.
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think what you will. i’ve actually been following the communiqués of the IAC for a while now. there were a few on the west coast associated with the resistance against ICE and the PLF that splintered of PMR. the “IAC” has always used such symbolic language, which is obviously metaphor for direct action.
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shifty – “think what you will”
Heh, how generous of you to allow that I may think my own thoughts. You rascally anarchist, you! Look at you promoting freedom of though (kind of)! Perhaps the IAC has always been bogus and there to promote anarchy as some new agey religion a la Rainblow Warriors? Sorry, even being from the west coast is no excuse for pretending that new age crap is actually anarchism (and I’m not sure why one would assume they don’t actually believe what they right, there seems to be no parodying or critique of religion, just promotion of the idea of anarchists being holy warriors of some kind…fuck that shit! That ain’t anarchism on the worst of days, the fact that you try to pretend it is and make excused for it rather than critique something obviously antithetical to anarchism just shows that you’re no anarchist yourself since you didn’t even notice the contradiction between ‘no gods no masters’ and “we’re wizards and witches on a magical mission”.
The fact that you’ve been cutting and pasting forever (and don’t think about the content of what you’re cutting and pasting, just the “brand”) doesn’t give you any actual political legitimacy or make you into a journalist or a critical thinker. It merely means you know how to cut and paste – clearly not using the pointy scissors reserved for big kids. You know, because you might hurt yourself if you engage in some of that reality-based thinking that the gods and masters try so hard to discourage you from doing. I’m trying to remember if I’ve actually seen you post anything original shifty – or if it’s just cut and paste and regurgitating other “alternative” views and other people’s journalism.
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i still think it’s just an attempt to write creative communiqués, which are often very boring. but whatever. i agree about the “new-agey” crap. if i thought they meant it literally, i would take the same issue with it that you do. i think it may have sprung out of the symbolism of “breaking the spell.”
I’m trying to remember if I’ve actually seen you post anything original shifty
heh, not sure if i should even dignify this one by bothering to dig up all my original work. (dig around in my articles or see the listing of my essays on my profile page.) but you’re right, i repost a lot, and i’m comfortable with that. i repost items from allies that i think need greater exposure.
i am also one of the few guerrillas who has shown my face and name.
Post Modified: 09/05/08 11:02:21
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Nah, I’m not asking for examples of original work just wondering if you do any because I mainly see you uncritically parroting other people. Combined with the fact that you don’t have any of the footage you shot and aren’t actually doing anything with it yourself, it made me start to wonder. Cameraman would be a good front and you don’t seem to have any actual interest in being a journalist per se (playing one on GNN yes, for real no).
I’m not sure why you think showing a (maybe real) face and name on GNN actually makes you more believable, once again this shows a lack of critical and tactical thinking if you actually are an activist (particularly one who promotes inciting violence). Really, if you’re this great big underground anarchist warrior you wouldn’t expose yourself in that way (and if you’re not, it’s a good way to get other people to expose themselves it seems to me).
Though I can understand how important it is to make anarchist press releases “entertaining” for the masses and news outlets – not! talk about ways to spread disinfo – that’s gotta be the lamest excuse and cover ever for promoting an image of anarchism that’s antithetical to actual anarchism. If it’s branded “anarchism” you’ll eat it up apparently and then try to feed it to others (even if ultimately it’s exactly the kind of poison that anarchism opposes).
And I don’t need to “cite” since I’m merely offering up my opinion from various observations – for those new to journalism it’s called “editorializing”. I have no idea of whether you actually are a plant (as I’ve said repeatedly) but from my perspective your approach supports the creation of a repressive police state and has little to do with anarchism (despite that being your brand of choice).
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i am also one of the few guerrillas who has shown my face and name.
pretty tired of this
not sure why showing your face or telling your name makes you somehow more credible in an entirely anonymous setting, but what the hell
that’s me on the right, my name is Nick Malone
sup
Post Modified: 09/05/08 11:44:27
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bahahahahah stupid fucking forum formatting
edited so you can click it to get the full picture
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My real name is Mary Johnson of Toledo, Ohio. This is me.
Post Modified: 09/05/08 11:48:24
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language and ideas exist in culture, or collective conscious.
there is not individual possession of these evolved resources.
but the same token that ‘no one is an island’ there is no idea one can have that does not build upon the thoughts, failures, and accomplishments of thousands or millions of humans.
anyway, i am an anarchist and i am religious having experienced what would make anyone believe in unseen forces. I just thought witches and wizards was a little flakey sounding.
no gods no masters is a metaphor Fifi, it means no slavery, not no faith or belief. anyway, why u harshing on shift so, he contributes and tries to create.
and i can believe in spirits and god and still be an accomplished sniper… yes i can
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“having experienced what would make anyone believe in unseen forces”
Doubtful.
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i’ve experienced plenty that’s made me believe in “unseen forces” but nothing yet that’s made me believe in any gods
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“anyway, i am an anarchist and i am religious having experienced what would make anyone believe in unseen forces. I just thought witches and wizards was a little flakey sounding.”
No flakier sounding that proclaiming oneself a religious anarchist! Seriously dude, no gods no masters means just that – no gods no masters. If you’ve mixing religion up in it you’re not an anarchist, you’re a holy warrior (yes, just in the name of a competing god/s than that of the Christian fundamentalists…funny how the two sides of the coin work together…). Some of us understanding neurobiology and don’t need to resort to magic or religion to explain the world or our experiences. I’ve had all kinds of interesting experiences (and I have no problem acknowledging “unseen forces” – I like me some wifi – illusions or brain farts that are natural, it’s the supernatural explanations that are bogus and a part of the exact set of social controls that anarchism opposes).
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Science – It makes ‘em feel better when they claim that “anyone” would believe as they do if they had the same “experiences” – it’s the constant hymn of the faithful and religious believers throughout history (and this kind of subjectivity makes people very easy to manipulate via propaganda, advertising aka commercial propaganda and all the same means used by illusionists throughout the centuries for fun and profit).
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i am an anarchist
anarchy means: without hierarchy
your slogan is hive mind bullshit
y’all are just jealous because your requests to unseen forces to reveal themselves have not been met in such cool fashion as mine.
my experience involved a dolphin and a congruence of people and stars (sol) and place
then there was also the millions of people who fed Ganesha statues milk for a day or two and the milk would vanish from the spoon… I watched a six year old girl do it and it vanished in two seconds… I lifted up the old stone statue and was asounded to find no mechanism… it was reported all over the planet save the USA
but be alone and afraid
and i will be an anarchist who knows of forces beyond the Wii interface
(BTW being an anarchist sorta entails not telling other what they think or believe… but you, having a corner on the anarchist market, must kno dat)
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ad scince
please provide empirical proof that there is no metaphysics
no God
no reincarnation or afterlife
both positions, for or against, possess no empirical proof. to be fixate one way or the other, therefore, is not science. I personally have empirical proof I consider valid, but I have no illusion this will or should satisfy y’all. I do, however, feel no need to hide it. do I think we should have kings and rulers and authorities… no, therefore I remain, faithfully, anarchist
and while i have no fear of a short life, i still have no fear of a long one either
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Great googly spaghetti monster – dolphins you say? Yeah, I’m just bitter because the great big imaginary daddy in the sky doesn’t love me as much as he loves you!
Who says I’m “alone” and “afraid”? Religion is the refuge of the lonely and scared, I assume you’ve been comforted by believing in a god that takes care of your whims for a small sacrifice. Last time I checked Hinduism is pretty much up at the top of the list for hierarchies (there’s this little thing called the caste system, not to mention that you get punished by “karma” for not conforming to the rules of the religion and staying in your place….flaky new age Americans who latch onto Eastern religions while ignoring their cultural and historical context are fucking’ lame in their colonizing of other cultures and distorting them to serve the purpose of their individual ego – new age religious fundamentalists actually believe a lot of the same shit as Christian Fundies, they just dress it up in more esoteric garb). Dude, I’m not the one petitioning gods because I can’t deal with reality or thinking that big elephant gods miraculously drink milk (‘cause, you know a growing god needs his milk and if something happened you can’t personally figure out then it must be magic!)
I’m not telling you what to think, I’m just saying that having faith in god/s means you’re not an anarchist (much as you may covet the label and brand yourself as one). You clearly have faith in an extremely hierarchal religion and gods and think they’ll take care of the “evil” (you being the “good” in your little religious drama of good and evil where those you don’t like are punished by god/karma). You’re as sucked into and at war with “reality based thinking” as much as any Bushite or Christian fundamentalist – just wearing a different outfit doesn’t make the content any different.
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“do I think we should have kings and rulers and authorities… no, therefore I remain, faithfully, anarchist”
Well, except for those gods who will punish those who don’t conform….
“faithfully anarchist” – hehehehe, now THAT’S funny.
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“y’all are just jealous because your requests to unseen forces to reveal themselves “
When did I request for unseen forces to reveal themselves? I think you’ve gotten life confused for a mystical role playing game and me confused with a fictional character from Lord of the Rings.
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You’re a holy warrior fighting a battle against evil, you’re no different than any other holy warrior and frightened person who takes refuge from the complexity of reality in religion. New age is like the cancer within any potential change since, like Bush’s anti-reality-based-thinking policy, it proposes that prayer can replace action and that there is a god in charge of the universe (and it’s personally on your side). Personally I wish all the holy warriors of the world who prefer fantasy and faith to reality would just leave the reality and material world to those of us who actually value them.
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Fifi, you’re making an awful lot of unjustified assumptions based on the simple statement that j-civ is “religious”
frankly it makes you look like the intolerant “holy warrior” in this conversation!
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Toad – Personally I prefer “unholy warrior” since it more correctly reflects my godless nature but feel free to label me in a way that makes sense to you – they’re just labels after all. Like all talismans they only have the power we invest in them and I don’t define myself by other people’s perceptions and systems of categorization.
It IS possible that he prays and believes god is answering his prayers but he’s not religious but that would be stretching credulity a bit and seems unlikely (yeah, I’m aware alternative types prefer “spiritual” but despite the attempts to be not religion by playing semantics it’s all still religion and faith in god/s). It seems there’s a lot of religion and new age pablum mixing itself up with “anarchism” these days from all the talk of good and evil, karma, witches and warlocks and so on by the “faithful” anarchists here. To me it’s relevant to point out that promoting unreality-based thinking is the same as what the Bushites do and that being into karma and having faith in milk drinking statues isn’t very far from believing god punishes the infidels and having faith in bleeding statues.
I mean, anyone can call themselves an anarchist but I’m going to continue to laugh at anyone who’s a theist yet calls themselves as anarchist (to me it indicates they’re more interested in the brand than any content). It’s a bit like calling oneself a compassionate conservative from my perspective! But, hey, it’s just an opinion.
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i guess i just don’t hear “religious” and automatically jump to “brainwashed holy warrior slave to the Papists”, but hey, that’s just an opinion too
to me, it’s relevant to point out that saying “i’m religious” isn’t even close to “promoting unreality-based thinking”!
and for the record, my understanding of neurobiology doesn’t even come close to explaining half of the things i experienced while studying nei-jia
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I don’t define myself by other people’s perceptions and systems of categorization
yet you seem perfectly comfortable defining others by your own perceptions and systems of categorization
funny how the two sides of the coin work together
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particularly one who promotes inciting violence
again, cite plz.
I don’t need to “cite” since I’m merely offering up my opinion from various observations
yes you do. this is more than an opinion. you are claiming that i advocate violence, which is untrue. such a claim warrants evidence.
and regardless of the fact that i think the language of the IAC is metaphorical, there is a good article in Fifth Estate Vol. 43 #2 entitled Shamanism, Anarchism, and the End of the World, that explores the relationship of anarchism to “spirituality” and its general resistance to organized forms of spirituality and religion because even “contemporary shamanism teaches verticle, hierarchical religion.”
Post Modified: 09/05/08 15:48:29
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Yeah, well, I’m just a bitter because god didn’t answer my prayers and reality makes me cranky. Jokes or other people’s assumptions aside, that’s a reasonable thing to point out Toad. At the end of the day I don’t really care what people call themselves (or at the beginning really) – I just think it’s highly entertaining that there seems to be so much new age religion wrapped up in the public face being presented as anarchist. And it seems like a dichotomy to me to on one hand be praying to a god for what you want and to be an anarchist – but hey, there’s a wide variety of subsets of anarchist and they’re all just brand identities in our culture anyway (complete with cultural customs and requisite fashion).
shifty – we had the conversation about violence, I think you glamorize it and that’s lame. If you can’t see how you do this after it’s been pointed out, I don’t see the point in repeating it since I’ve already told you why in another thread. I’m sure I won’t damage your reputation on GNN (whatever a “reputation” on GNN is worth). Thanks for the link.
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Toad – For the things you’ve experienced that you don’t understand or don’t have an explanation for can you just not know or do you need to attribute a supernatural explanation?
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Yeah, well, I’m just a bitter because god didn’t answer my prayers and reality makes me cranky
heh…yeah, i know the feeling
Yeah, well, I’m just a bitter because god didn’t answer my prayers and reality makes me cranky
again tho, j-civ didn’t say anything about praying – that’s your assumption
there’s nearly as many flavors of “religious” as there are of “anarchist” these days after all!
they’re all just brand identities in our culture anyway
agreed
For the things you’ve experienced that you don’t understand or don’t have an explanation for can you just not know or do you need to attribute a supernatural explanation?
“supernatural” is a pretty loaded term – i always assumed the effects i witnessed and experienced were perfectly natural, as they derived from natural processes, but divorced from the modern perception of “reality”
i’m guessing most scientists would laugh at me if i told them about the qi gong master who was able to increase his body temperature at will on cold mornings so students could warm their hands from his skin as if it were a fire, and who was able to project energy from his fingertips so powerfully that the invisible force caused indentations in his students’ skin from inches away – but that doesn’t make the experiences any less real, or natural, to myself or anyone else who was there
but to give your honest question the honest answer it deserves…personally, i’d be perfectly happy just not knowing, if an explanation weren’t available
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I do not pray- why? all is one
i repudiate organized, hierarchical religion… that does not mean the Ganesha statues miracle did not happen before millions of eyes
i am an anarchist, and I am not a theist, as i have no clue what it is all about. i guess at why a “God” would let so many suffer so horribly… but i know nothing… yet the wonder/miracle/demonstration i had rubbed in my face for three days, with a one moment climax in the center, indicated that the movement of every atom and its state can be controlled if and when a higher power chooses… what the preconditions for action are, i do not know
do i believe in any book written by human hands as holy? No… well, perhaps immediatism by Bey
and i like violence and recommend it to the dispossessed
cause line flava said, “some ain’t gonna change”
and i think september eleventh was neither an act of God nor ‘Islam’
and I think life cries out.
and I am an ‘environmentalist’... yet, I have a car. (and it runs on petrol!
and I am a feminist, but I wear heels to fancy events, and if I grew grubby arm hair, which I do not, I would wax it… but bless the crusty mamas
and I do not use ‘drugs’
but i like drug users
and dealers
and I stole an M5 once and drove it cross country and torched it in Beverly
and i have used torture
but i reject the states right to torture or execute not because it is not possible but because it scares the crap outta me when states do that
(and the protests at dnc/rnc do not bode well for what our pork thinks it has the right to do to civilians)
and i rul myself
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supernatural” is a pretty loaded term – i always assumed the effects i witnessed and experienced were perfectly natural, as they derived from natural processes, but divorced from the modern perception of “reality
really nice way of putting it
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Thanks for the thoughtful response Toad.
JC wrote – “y’all are just jealous because your requests to unseen forces to reveal themselves have not been met in such cool fashion as mine.”
I gotta ask, perhaps being born and bred an atheist (meaning godless, not a religious person who now hates and rejects religion, I’m just someone who grew up without one and knowing that it wasn’t God that made shit happen). I missed learning a distinction important to people who believe in unseen forces that reveal themselves in mysterious ways, but this sounds like praying and religion to me…it’s got asking things of unseen forces who have the power to grant your requests and thinking they’ve responded, to me that implies that one is petitioning an invisible being who has the power to do what you want if you ask (maybe not omnipotent but with some kind of intelligent entity that has the power to alter/shift reality, sounds like a god to me but then I am an outsider to this religion stuff so I don’t tend to make the very fine distinctions religious faith seems to thrive upon in arguing about who’s version of God is righteous and good compared to the other’s evil). Calling something a miracle seems pretty religious to me, particularly when it’s a miracle relating to a religious icon/statue.
jonny civil – Fair enough, if your actions contradict your beliefs at times and you acknowledge that then I can accept that. It still seems highly irrational and contradictory to me to be an anarchist but to believe in milk drinking Gods of an intensely hierarchal religion but if it’s a faith thing not a rational or logical thing for you then it is what it is. Clearly I’m behind the times with my old school concept of anarchy that was pretty antithetical to wizards, elves and milk eating gods since it was about practical actions and realism (and recognizing the controls used by the state and religion with it’s promises of a better life elsewhere for sacrifices here, that benefited the church and state, of course).
I hate to tell ya jonny but your government started torturing and executing, and consciously putting the current state of terror into action, well before the current DNC/RNC media feeding frenzies or 9/11. There’s been over 20 years for people to speak up about what their government has been putting in place and creating in the world – this is the end of the dance not the beginning.
So if you burn yourself do you smell like pork too? (All being one and everything, do you also consider yourself “pork” and why don’t you stop yourself from being such an ass?!? Er, just kidding kinda… I am curious as to how you related to “pork” if you consider them to be one with you, care to inform?
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I find this all very strange – no wonder the shit done the people who identify themselves as anarchists at demos makes me scratch my head.
My fave thing from the site Floyd posted above so far (but then I haven’t dug very deep yet).
“The Satanic Conspiracy of the New World Order Flow Chart” High Def Photo and .pdf file on CD $10.00
To me anarchy was never about “the good fighting the evil”. Sorry, any conflict seen in such simplistic good/evil terms just seems religious to me since I don’t buy into the sinner saint dichotomy of religion. It also just doesn’t jive for me with the understanding that the big issue is systemic/structural not to do with individual’s being evil per se – which doesn’t mean individuals can’t be shitty, just that what we so often call “evil” is actually pretty banal and predictable (greed, selfishness, jealously, rage, cruelty – all are their own forms of suffering). For me, casting a human issue in religious or fantastical D&D terms (whether as metaphor or literal belief) is problematic simply because it’s ignoring that it’s a human issue and that all solutions really require real world solutions not magic spells. And I’ve still got to wonder how someone can on one hand be against hierarchies and at the same time ascribe to magic. But then maybe I’ve just never run into any magic that isn’t multi-level and about having esoteric power over others, nature and the world that are far beyond what the average person has and give on more power. I’m not sure how this is that different – in theory – than actually amassing worldly power? Perhaps I’m missing something here…. If I am, please inform me.
Just as an aside, I know that women like Palin and other anti-choice women like to call themselves “feminists” but that doesn’t actually make them feminists – this is simply because they support and promote ideas that are oppressive to other women (ie. the content contradicts the label they’re using). One reason I actually object to this kind of disregard for content vis a vis label is that it’s a way to render a powerful concept (as symbolized by a word) powerless by essentially making it meaningless – it’s sort of an extension of the non-reality based doublespeak that comes out from the most nefarious of politicians (a fave of the Cheney/Rove/Reagan/Bush camp). No doubt it’s a particularly personal sticking point for me since I’m a writer but I’d think there’d be some kind of interest in this aspect of words and meaning, and propaganda vs clarity – particularly vis a vis politics and writing since this is kinda meant to be a site geared towards political journalism (kinda).
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that u have a closed mind indicates poor soil for anarchist mind expansion… i never was a believer… I have had belief thrust upon me by experiences which I can not empirically explain save by ‘non-visible sentient action”.
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Heh, seems to me that an uncritical mind that’s so reliant upon faith is barren ground for anarchism (but fertile ground for hierarchal cults which divide people into good and evil). So, clearly we both think each other is unfit to be an anarchist (not that I’m actually labeling myself one like you are) according to our understandings of anarchy.
Believing anything and everything isn’t having an open mind, it’s being gullible. Just because you, I or we don’t understand something doesn’t mean that the explanation is “god” or “non-visible sentient action” (“non-visible sentient action” which just sounds like you’re playing semantics because you don’t want to say “God”...gods, of course, being “non-visible sentient actors” and your “sentient action” requires a sentient actor).
You have a choice whether to believe in “non-visible sentient actors” and attribute your experiences to them. And, while I know it’s very difficult for some people, you can also just choose to accept that at this point in time you don’t have an explanation for your experiences and keep an open mind about it. People with open minds can accept they don’t know stuff. For instance, I don’t KNOW god/s don’t exist but if you actually look around at how many gods people have created for themselves, how religion (including new age stuff) is used to oppress people, and how useful “god” was and is for people who are uncomfortable with not knowing and actual mystery, how cognition works and so on, it seems highly unlikely to me that god exists. (Not even getting into all the ugly stuff people do and then blame god/devil as a way to avoid personal responsibility.) In fact, it ultimately seems pretty narcissistic and egocentric to think that the universe exists for humans and there’s some parental figure looking after each and everyone individually.
I’ve had all kinds of weird and interesting experiences over the years that believers would consider mystical or supernatural – I’m actually genetically prone/primed for certain kinds of experiences people tend to consider mystical (we’ve got a fair amount of eccentricity in our family). Most of them have much more mundane explanations, interesting and emotionally powerful as they were – though I do understand the temptation to believe an unusual experience isn’t a brain fart, hallucination or, even scarier for most, a manifestation of an even more intense type of abnormal brain function (particularly strange experiences that are, as you describe your’s, “thrust upon” you unexpectedly rather than being the result of intentional action like taking drugs, one of the various forms of meditation or just dancing for 6 hours straight).
The fact that you I don’t accept some www.milkmiracle.com site as evidence of God (and that apparently you do since you’re offering it as evidence) doesn’t make me close minded. It seems to me that you seem closed to the idea that perhaps there is no God or whatever it is you petition to try to do you bidding – having faith isn’t being open minded (it’s actually closing your mind to any evidence that contradicts your beliefs, not being based upon evidence is what makes it “faith”).
johnnycivil – I think it does a disservice to anarchism to mix it with religion/spirituality but that’s just my opinion and clearly there’s a trend towards doing this. Besides, while I’m certainly trying to challenge some of your beliefs, I’m not trying to tell you what to replace them with. I’m happy to teach and provoke people to think for themselves and to question…. You know, to open their minds to other possibilities and not to rely upon higher powers (be that god or the state) to create the change we want to see in the world and our societies…
Post Modified: 09/07/08 15:03:40
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toad, you said jc said nothing about prayer…it seemed like the word “request” in the context she used it in was absolutely meant to mean prayer…(requests to unseen forces…)
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